عضو مميز
An E-book collecting my website articles
Salamu Alikom Brothers,
You can check out new website answering Christians here, if you have any comments kindly feed me back, you can see also a pdf file collecting the articles in my website:http://jesus-is-muslim.net/http://jesus-is-muslim.net/wp-conten...-Is-Muslim.pdfI hope this may help. If you have any comments or any kind of review, kindly inform me.Best Regards
رحمك الله يا سمية
ما شاء الله
جزاكم الله خير
تحمَّلتُ وحديَ مـا لا أُطيـقْ من الإغترابِ وهَـمِّ الطريـقْ
اللهم اني اسالك في هذه الساعة ان كانت جوليان في سرور فزدها في سرورها ومن نعيمك عليها . وان كانت جوليان في عذاب فنجها من عذابك وانت الغني الحميد برحمتك يا ارحم الراحمين
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I have a question please. On what do you base your claim that Ismael was the child of sacrifice? As I understand the Quran does not identify the child by name. Is it accurate enough to go by the assumptions of some muslims that it was Ishmael? Or should you think if the Quran was indeed meant to confirm the previous scriptures and not to contradict them, then given that the child if not named in the Quran it could as well be referring to Isaac... Thus confirming the scriptures. Or is it acceptable to go with a version according to Muslim tradition that does not raise other uncomfortable points for you. You can't really just accuse the Jews of changing the scriptures for no reason. Why would they need to change the name from Ishmael to Isaac? What would they have to gain by doing so?QuoteOriginally Posted by M.Khaled
There are other points on other issues that could do with clarification. However, I do not think you would be interested, given that your target audience I'm assuming to be Christians who you would wish to convert to Islam for whatever reason, I think you need to check what Christians actually understand from many of the issues you raise. Otherwise the hard work you have spent on your article with fall on stony ground. If your target audience is your fellow muslims then no doubt they will congratulate you on a job well done. It depends on what the aims and objectives are I guess. :)
Peace to you.
عضو مميز
Sorry for the late replies as I am very busy nowadays, actually Ishmael being the sacrificed son is mentioned by name in the Sunna, as for the Quran, although it wasn't mentioned that the sacrificed son is Ishmael, but the context is clearly talking about the action of sacrifice then it moves to the birth of Isaac, and it's well known that Ishmael is older than Isaac:
99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/37.htm
The Jews of course wanted to have the honor of being the sons of Isaac, that's why they corrupted that verse.
member
explain please.. Is the Sunna the word of God as the Quran claims to be? If not it is only the opinion of men and as you say the words of men can't be trusted in the Bible as accurately relaying Gods word then why should the word of men in the Sunna be an exception to this rule?Quote
The fact that Ishmael is older makes no difference. The Bible is quite clear that Isaac was the child of promise. Gods covenant was through Isaac. God made a promise for Ishmael but the covenant was through Isaac.
Quote99.QuoteHe said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!I fail to see purely on the belief alone that because Ishmael was the elder it must have referred to him and not Isaac. Ishmael was born through Hagar.. Abrahams wife's Sarah slave. God promised Abraham that Sarah would bear a child and he was to be called Isaac and he would be the child of promise. It was only through Sarah's doubting Gods promise that Ishmael was born at all. I wonder if she could have seen the implications of her doubt would she have been so hasty.. Or would she, as she should have done trusted in God.Quote100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham!
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/37.htm
You do of course have proof of this statement.QuoteThe Jews of course wanted to have the honor of being the sons of Isaac, that's why they corrupted that verse.
Peace
عضو مميز
Well, as for your question concerning the Sunna, we consider it as a revelation from God to Prophet Muhammad so hr is not talking from himself and that's why the Quran ordered us to follow and obey him.
Regarding Ishmael being older this is a proof from the Quran that the sacrificed son is Ishmael as the story of sacrifice was mentioned then the event afterwards was Abraham being blessed with Isaac, you asked me about the Quran I gave you evidence from the Quran, as for the Bible, although it tells that it was Isaac, the story regarding the age of Ishmael is inconsistent giving an indication that a manipulation in the scriptures occurred which is explained in detail in the article you're supposed to ask me about. As for Ishmael being the son of the maid, well he was actually blessed and promised with a great nation which is actually a prophecy of Islam as you can see my article of blessing of Ishmael
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Greetings M.Khaled, if you put equal importance on the Sunna as the Quran then that is fine by me. From my personal perspective I see that the Quran itself should be the greater authority in all matters. On that basis the Quran is not clear in regards to which child was the child of promise which has left muslims with the predicament of having to join the dots themselves. But you cannot change the truth of Gods word or intentions.Quote
I do not recall you inviting me personally to read your article so I was not aware that I was supposed to ask you about it, but since you bring it up then I have questions on this issue.
Why did you not quote the section in Genesis pertaining to this matter in full? Instead of taking a line here or there that you feel may back up your position. Is this fair or intellectually honest? If I were to use the Quran out of context I'm sure I would be censured for it. You see my point I hope. If you give the section more consideration you will see it is quite clear it refers to Isaac and not Ishmael.
Genesis 15:27
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”
19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.
you are right that God promised Ishmael that he would fruitful and be the father of nations.. Which all came to pass. However, the child of the covenant promise was to be Isaac. I am not sure what inconsistencies you find that lead you to believe the Jews of the time would have had cause to change the names. For what? The honour of being the sons of Isaac? They must then have known at that time the nature of the "honour"would bring them in the future. That seems rather far fetched. Was the Quran sent down in chronological order? It does not seem to be arranged chronologically to me, but then I am no expert and do not claim to be. Whereas the Bible is chronological and we see and understand why Ishmael was first born, why Isaac was the child of promise. Ishmael was born in the normal way, at Sarah's behest.. Not Gods. The birth of Isaac was considered to be miraculous given the advanced age of both his parents.. That was at Gods behest.
Why is it important for muslims that it should be Ishmael? Are you trying to make the facts fit Gods truth or mans opinion?
Peace
عضو مميز
Hi Pandora,Quote
Well, for me I see that the Quran is clear concerning that the offered son is Ishmael when we look at its context in the right way, your concern that the Quran is not chronologically in order is regarding the whole Quran, but we are talking here about the order inside one story not through the whole Quran, which is represented in about 15 verses talking about the story of Abraham when he faced his people in Ur Cheldan then he had a son and the story of sacrifice occurred then he had Isaac, for sure the story of sacrifice is pointing to Ishmael as Isaac wasn't born yet. As for your question regarding the Sunna, if the hadith was proven to be true from the Isnad, then it is taken as the Quran. The difference between the Quran and the Sunna is the same as the difference between general constitution and detailed law. Both are important.
Actually I quoted the Christian arguments you gave below and answered them:QuoteWhy did you not quote the section in Genesis pertaining to this matter in full? Instead of taking a line here or there that you feel may back up your position. Is this fair or intellectually honest? If I were to use the Quran out of context I'm sure I would be censured for it. You see my point I hope. If you give the section more consideration you will see it is quite clear it refers to Isaac and not Ishmael.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seedafter thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt me and you. Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner that is not of thy seed. Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
So it clearly tells that the sign of this covenant is circumcision, this covenant is everlasting and that the one who don’t circumcise breaks God’s covenant, which Muslims already do while according to Christians , Paul cancelled circumcision.
Other might say that the covenant is with Isaac only as it says:
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Well, this was in the beginning, then it was transferred to Ishmael’s descendants, and that’s what is told in the New Testament when Jesus said to the Jews that the kingdom of God shall be taken away from them:
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Calling Ishmael as a fruitful, and have a great nation is very clear in praising him, otherwise, if God knew that a false prophet came from his descendants where a great nation followed him, why did He describe this nation as great?
Besides the Bible tells in another part:
Gen 12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
We Muslims bless Abraham everyday in our prayer. At the end of every prayer, a Muslim must say:
“All the compliments, prayers and good things are due to Allah; peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s Mercy and Blessings be upon you. Peace be on us and on the true pious devotees of Allah. I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and I also testify that Muhammad is His slave and His Messenger. O Allah! send your Salat (Blessings, Graces, Honors and Mercy) on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Salat on Abraham and the family of Abraham. O Allah! Send Your Blessings on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Blessings on Abraham and the family of Abraham. You are Praiseworthy, Most Gracious.”
So if Muslims bless Abraham, the Bible says that God blesses who bless him, how come that the followers of a false prophet be blessed?
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You are free to see what you wish in the Quran as it is your respected Holy Book. However, the Bible gives a different account and it is abundantly clear Isaac was always the child of promise.. And it was through Isaac that Gods covenant is passed. It is also very clear why it had to be Isaac. Maybe we should discuss the various covenants sometime... Because I am not sure God ever did make a covenant with the Muslims.. Rather muslims see themselves grafted onto the Abrahamic covenant through Ishmael. You have your own reasons to prefer it to be Ishmael I think.. Even though the Quran itself does not confirm this fact by naming the child of sacrifice. On a matter of such importance do you not think Allah would have given a definitive answer to this question? Given the implications. I really see this exercise as yet another way to negate Jesus.Quote
I bow to your knowledge in regards to the Quran and Sunna.
QuoteActually I quoted the Christian arguments you gave below and answered them:
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seedafter thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt me and you. Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner that is not of thy seed. Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
So it clearly tells that the sign of this covenant is circumcision, this covenant is everlasting and that the one who don’t circumcise breaks God’s covenant, which Muslims already do while according to Christians , Paul cancelled circumcision.
Yes.. But read it carefully...this refers to Abraham and his direct descendants through the covenant. This circumcision never applied to Gentiles... Who were later grafted on to the spiritual family of Abraham through Jesus. So it had nothing to do with Paul cancelling circumcision. Besides which muslims have already broken this covenant.. I don't believe the Quran actually says anything about boys being circumcised on the eighth day .. Which is a covenant condition. It's not just the fact that a male is circumcised but it should be done on the eighth day. Or maybe you feel you can make adjustments accordingly to Gods Covenant?
God said of Ishmael in the Bible... “A wild donkey of a man, and his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him, and he will dwell (settle, encamp) in the presence (“in the face”) of his brothers.” .... Did God see Ishmael as a suitable candidate to carry His covenant? It does not seem so.
QuoteOther might say that the covenant is with Isaac only as it says:QuoteGen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Well, this was in the beginning, then it was transferred to Ishmael’s descendants, and that’s what is told in the New Testament when Jesus said to the Jews that the kingdom of God shall be taken away from them:
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Calling Ishmael as a fruitful, and have a great nation is very clear in praising him, otherwise, if God knew that a false prophet came from his descendants where a great nation followed him, why did He describe this nation as great?
Besides the Bible tells in another part:
Gen 12:3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
It was never transferred to Ishmael or his descendants. This is wishful thinking on your parts. You cannot take your misunderstanding of Matthew 21:43 as proof of this. This parable referred to Jesus. The Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews but here Jesus teaches that it is His followers that shall inherit that Kingdom... Not the muslims.. the bringing forth of fruits is in connection to the parable Jesus is the cornerstone in this verse. The fact that God promised Ishmael would be fruitful is coincidental.. When referred to Ishmael the meaning was fruitful and multiply in numbers.
QuoteWe Muslims bless Abraham everyday in our prayer. At the end of every prayer, a Muslim must say:Quote“All the compliments, prayers and good things are due to Allah; peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s Mercy and Blessings be upon you. Peace be on us and on the true pious devotees of Allah. I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and I also testify that Muhammad is His slave and His Messenger. O Allah! send your Salat (Blessings, Graces, Honors and Mercy) on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Salat on Abraham and the family of Abraham. O Allah! Send Your Blessings on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as You sent Your Blessings on Abraham and the family of Abraham. You are Praiseworthy, Most Gracious.”
So if Muslims bless Abraham, the Bible says that God blesses who bless him, how come that the followers of a false prophet be blessed?
Its good that you bless Abraham I'm sure God will look with kindness on that fact. However that still does not have any baring on the fact that Ishmael was not the child of promise.. It was always Isaac.
Peace.
عضو مميز
Especially when I see that the Bible is dealing with Ishmael who is 16 years old as baby and I see a clear inconsistency as expressed here, you haven't addressed this till now by the way:Quote
http://jesus-is-muslim.net/corruptio...-son-to-isaac/
Well, if the circumcision was never applied to the Gentiles, then on what basis that the Gentiles were preached? Either they have the covenant of Isaac, or that they have nothing to do with it. In Islam, circumcision is not for just for the Arabs but for the whole people, and we are talking about the concept of circumcision not the full details, otherwise Abraham was circumcised at 80 years old. Besides, Jesus said in Matthew 21:43 that the Kingdom of God shall be taken away from the Jews and given to a nation working with it's fruits. If this nation were the Christians, then actually Paul stopped working with any fruits either circumcision or anything else as he considered faith only is enough. And if you considered the everlasting covenant shall be in the seed of Abraham, then Jesus says that it shall be taken away from the sons of Isaac, you can gesture who are the other sons of Abraham, the stone which was rejected "and he will dwell (settle, encamp) in the presence (“in the face”) of his brothers" ;)QuoteYes.. But read it carefully...this refers to Abraham and his direct descendants through the covenant. This circumcision never applied to Gentiles... Who were later grafted on to the spiritual family of Abraham through Jesus. So it had nothing to do with Paul cancelling circumcision. Besides which muslims have already broken this covenant.. I don't believe the Quran actually says anything about boys being circumcised on the eighth day .. Which is a covenant condition. It's not just the fact that a male is circumcised but it should be done on the eighth day. Or maybe you feel you can make adjustments accordingly to Gods Covenant?
God said of Ishmael in the Bible... “A wild donkey of a man, and his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him, and he will dwell (settle, encamp) in the presence (“in the face”) of his brothers.” .... Did God see Ishmael as a suitable candidate to carry His covenant? It does not seem so.
A coincidence? Ok, let's go to Isaiah 42QuoteThe fact that God promised Ishmael would be fruitful is coincidental.. When referred to Ishmael the meaning was fruitful and multiply in numbers.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit; let the inhabitants of Sela sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
Why especially Kedar and Sela? Actually Kedar was the eldest son of Ishmael, Sela is a mountain in Medina (See here), and it was mentioned in hadiths as this for example.. Coincidence, isn't it? You may say that the Bible’s dictionary tells that it is Petra. Well there may be more than one Sela as Seir for example:
H8165
say-eer’
Formed like H8163; rough; Seir, a mountain of Idumaea and its aboriginal occupants, also one in Palestine: – Seir.(Strong’s dictionary)
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