Which makes more sense Islam or Christianity

[huria]

Christians normally claim that Islam does not make Any sense because why would God leave human kind for thousands of years then all of the sudden send a prophet Muhammad peace be upon him with a new message and a book in Arabic

In fact, Islam is the most logical and comprehensive religion. A fair, and balanced research would lead any unbiased person to come to this conclusion. Islam is the most logical, natural and fulfilling way of life but since the claim is from Christians mostly, for the purpose of this article I will try to explain logically why Islam is more logical than Christianity.


God

Islam

God is one the creator of the universe, God in Arabic is Allah. Arab Christians also call God (Allah).

Christianity

“The One God exists in Three Persons and One Substance." God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit., and those three are one, and equal.

Although Christians say they are equal, you will never hear them say it in any other order except father – son – Holy Spirit. If they are equal can they say Holy Spirit – son – father?

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus? “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”

Is it clear who is God from the book?

Islam

It is crystal clear who is God in Islam, one God, the creators, and no partners to associate with him in worship. The Quran goes in length about Allah, and his attributes, and his 99 names, for example The Master of the Universe," as stated in Verses 22-23, Chapter 26 of the Holy Quran, The Beneficent, The Merciful, “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is The Hearer, The Seer “ (Al-Shoura, 42: 11), and the many attributes of Allah.

Christianity

It is not clear from the bible about the trinity, there is no single verse in the whole bible about the 3 gods in one. The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7, it has been taken out of most English translations bible because "The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the New Testament." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]”

If that concept was so important, why is it not in the bible (the guidance for followers)? Leave it for interpretation based on people’s wishes and desires? If you give the bible to someone who never heard of trinity, and ask them to extract this out, they will not. It is like giving someone a title of a book, how to learn French in 10 days, you read the whole books, and it has nothing to do with French, the same could be said about the trinity and the bible.

Who to worship?

Islam

It is very clear from the Quran who to worship. Many verses in the Quran ,Allah tell us to worship him, for example “Say: He is Allah, (the) One; (1)Allah, the Eternal; (2)He did not beget (give birth) and He was not begotten (given birth to); (3)And there has never been anyone equal to Him. (4) (112: 1- 4). “And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone).” [Az-Zariyat 51:56]

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him…” [Al-Isra’ 17:23]

“Say (O Muhammad P.B.U.H): “Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him….” [Al-An’am 6:151]

Every Muslim in His Five Prayers confirms this Belief:

“You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything)” [Al-Fatihah 1:5]

Christianity

Again it is not clear, there is no single verse of Jesus sayings in the bible, which explicitly state to worship him, or that he is one of three God/s. in fact the bible states that Jesus peace be upon him was praying to someone “ God, my God, why have you forsaken me"? (cf. Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) Was he praying to himself? If so, was he complaining to himself about why he had forsaken himself?

“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God” Luke 6:12 who was he praying to? To himself?

The messengers/ prophets.

Islam

God created Adam, and then thought our father how to repent, after he disobeyed God, and thought him who our enemy was. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message was the same, worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins but not from minor sins .

Allah has established proof against His servants by sending the Messengers and sending down the Books. They were not sent to one nation to the exclusion of others. Rather they were sent to all nations, in different places and at different times, as Allah say

“Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them.” [Faatir 3524]

Muslims have to believe in all the prophets and messengers of God, equally, without distinction. In the Holy Quran (2:136, 285, and 3:84 etc.) it is stated clearly: "We make no distinction between them".

“Indeed, We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people and he said: “O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day!” [Al-A’raf 7: 59]


The Quran mentions the names of 25 prophets and indicates there were others. It says:
“Of some messengers We have already told you the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct.” (Quran 4:164)

The Names of the 25 Prophets Mentioned are as follows:
Adam
Idris (Enoch)
Nuh (Noah)
Hud (Heber)
Salih (Methusaleh)
Lut (Lot)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Ismail (Ishmael)
Ishaq (Isaac)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Shu’aib (Jethro)
Ayyub (Job)
Dhulkifl (Ezekiel)
Musa (Moses)
Harun (Aaron)
Dawud (David)
Sulayman (Solomon)
Ilias (Elias)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Zakariya (Zachariah)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad

So Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with a new message, it was the same teaching of all the messengers before him including Ibrahim, Jesus, and Moses peace be upon them all. The message stayed the same, worship one God without any partners.


Christianity

You would expect that major events such as the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ, that make up the entire case for Christianity, to be at least prophesied by the prophets/ messengers in the old testament, without any ambiguity, and without any deliberate mistranslations and lies. The Truth and the sad reality for the believers in the crucifixion, "trinity", doesn't even exist in the entire Bible.

So what were the messengers teaching before the coming of “son of God”?

The same massage of Islam “.. None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God…” (Quran 3:62)

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me “Exodus 20:3 = Deuteronomy 5:7

Even Jesus peace be upon him said the same [And one of the scribes came, and … asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:] (Mark 12:28-29, KJV)

[Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.] (Matthew 5:17)

In fact according to the bible the prophets prayed the way Muslims pray

"And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed (Matthew 26:39)
"And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped." (Exodus 34:8)
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship (Joshua 5:14)

Conclusion

Islam is the religion, which was given to Adam peace be upon him the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets, may Allah exalt their mention, sent by Allah to humankind. Islam means the complete submission and obedience to Allah (God). Therefore, all prophets were indeed MUSLIMS because they were true submitters to the will of ALLAH, the Creator. Prophet Muhammad peace upon him was the seal of prophets, he was sent to present Allah's revelation in its final form and for the last time. This was necessary because the message delivered by the previous Prophets and Messengers, peace upon them all, had been corrupted or distorted by their followers. Allah took it upon Himself to guard the last message (i.e. the Quran) from corruption. He says in the Quran :"Verily, it is We Who have sent down the message (i. e., the Quran) and surely, We will be its guardian.” [Quran 15:9]

In contrast the trinity in Christianity does not make any sense, “The One God exists in Three Persons and One Substance." God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit., and those three are one, and equal. Do the scriptures show Jesus and his Father to be co-equal? Jesus himself answers at John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I am." Non of the prophets taught trinity. The whole religion is based on the dying son who will die for our sins but he does not even mention it! so God sacrificed himself to himself so human kind can go back to heaven as the sin of Adam made us unholy. God does not want to forgive the sin of Adam, instead he sends his son ( that is him too) to be humiliated, spat on, and killed on the cross, and that the only way to forgive human kind!! It makes perfect sense !

[pandora]

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Christians normally claim that Islam does not make Any sense because why would God leave human kind for thousands of years then all of the sudden send a prophet Muhammad peace be upon him with a new message and a book in Arabic

In fact, Islam is the most logical and comprehensive religion. A fair, and balanced research would lead any unbiased person to come to this conclusion. Islam is the most logical, natural and fulfilling way of life but since the claim is from Christians mostly, for the purpose of this article I will try to explain logically why Islam is more logical than Christianity.

greetings Huria, firstly I feel your thread would be better named "which makes more sense Islam or a muslims interpretation of Christianity".. Because that's what you have here in your portrayal of Christianity. Which is not according to The Bible or Christian doctrine. So is it fair to say which makes more sense if you do not understand what you are making comparison with? Christians don't believe God left mankind without guidance for thousands of years.. Because we have the Torah and the Gospel and all the teachings of the Prophets from Abraham to Jesus. Jesus said with Him it was finished that's why we are not expecting another prophet... Also we are warned that any prophet who subsequently comes with a message that does not proclaim Jesus as Lord, then that is a false prophet and false revelation and we should not be following such. Many have come and many have been rejected. Not only is Islam's message different it is diametrically opposed to Christianity... On the key points it proposes the opposite. So I see that has having massive consequences on my eternal salvation and so cannot blindly accept such on the basis of one mans testimony as a prophet, without clear evidence. I have not seen that clear evidence, the fact that many have and converted to Islam means nothing.. As each person has an individual journey.

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God

Quote

Islam

God is one the creator of the universe, God in Arabic is Allah. Arab Christians also call God (Allah).

Christianity

“The One God exists in Three Persons and One Substance." God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit., and those three are one, and equal.

Although Christians say they are equal, you will never hear them say it in any other order except father – son – Holy Spirit. If they are equal can they say Holy Spirit – son – father?

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus? “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”

you start off correctly enough, One God exists in three persons and one substance... Though I would have said essence rather than substance. However, you are in error when you say we believe they are equal. As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD. Neither the Son.. (Gods Word - Jesus) or the Spirit work independently of the Father. That is why Jesus said the Father is greater than I.. And why Jesus also said He (Jesus) will send the Spirit (Paraclete) to guide the disciples after His ascension. So we will never say any other than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit... We know all worship is to God.. His Word and Spirit are God. Anyway, enough.. I don't want to cabbage your head with stuff you can't understand, and really you don't need to as a Muslim it's not for you to worry about.

Quote

Is it clear who is God from the book?

Quote

Islam

It is crystal clear who is God in Islam, one God, the creators, and no partners to associate with him in worship. The Quran goes in length about Allah, and his attributes, and his 99 names, for example The Master of the Universe," as stated in Verses 22-23, Chapter 26 of the Holy Quran, The Beneficent, The Merciful, “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is The Hearer, The Seer “ (Al-Shoura, 42: 11), and the many attributes of Allah.

Christianity

It is not clear from the bible about the trinity, there is no single verse in the whole bible about the 3 gods in one. The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7, it has been taken out of most English translations bible because "The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the New Testament." [The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p.711, Abingdon Press.]”

If that concept was so important, why is it not in the bible (the guidance for followers)? Leave it for interpretation based on people’s wishes and desires? If you give the bible to someone who never heard of trinity, and ask them to extract this out, they will not. It is like giving someone a title of a book, how to learn French in 10 days, you read the whole books, and it has nothing to do with French, the same could be said about the trinity and the bible.

this is your problem, you believe that because the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then it was simply made up. You won't find any verse that mentions three gods in one because that's NOT what the trinity doctrine stands for. The trinity is NOT biblical teaching and you will not find any verses saying it is, it's a term arrived at, after great study of the scriptures over hundreds of years in an effort to explain the nature of God as told by God Himself through His prophets. The word Tawheed is not to be found in the Quran .. But would you deny the concept of Gods oneness is found within its pages? In fact, muslims cannot satisfactorily explain the concept of "oneness" .. A thread exists here where a past member issued a challenge to muslims to explain exactly that, it remains unanswered. There are many verses in the Bible both OT and NT that point to Gods triune nature or a plurality in the Godhead if you wish.. John 5:7 is not one of them. Besides common sense dictates that if the creation reflects the creator then absolute oneness would exist in nature... Does it?

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Who to worship?

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Islam

It is very clear from the Quran who to worship. Many verses in the Quran ,Allah tell us to worship him, for example “Say: He is Allah, (the) One; (1)Allah, the Eternal; (2)He did not beget (give birth) and He was not begotten (given birth to); (3)And there has never been anyone equal to Him. (4) (112: 1- 4). “And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone).” [Az-Zariyat 51:56]

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him…” [Al-Isra’ 17:23]

“Say (O Muhammad P.B.U.H): “Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him….” [Al-An’am 6:151]

Every Muslim in His Five Prayers confirms this Belief:

“You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything)” [Al-Fatihah 1:5]

Christianity

Again it is not clear, there is no single verse of Jesus sayings in the bible, which explicitly state to worship him, or that he is one of three God/s. in fact the bible states that Jesus peace be upon him was praying to someone “ God, my God, why have you forsaken me"? (cf. Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) Was he praying to himself? If so, was he complaining to himself about why he had forsaken himself?

“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God” Luke 6:12 who was he praying to? To himself?

there is no verse with Jesus saying "worship me".. However, there are many instances where He accepted worship and did not rebuke those who worshipped Him. Just because Jesus did not say the direct words.. "I am divine" does not mean he did not imply such indirectly and by His actions. As for Jesus not saying He was one of three gods... Well, that quite frankly is offensive! All His teaching was to show us the ONE true God.. There has only ever been ONE God in Christianity..
Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same. So your inferences aren't applicable.

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The messengers/ prophets.

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Islam

God created Adam, and then thought our father how to repent, after he disobeyed God, and thought him who our enemy was. Adam peace be upon him was a messenger to his children, and he was the first messenger on Earth, the message was the same, worship one God, and do not associate any partners with him and follow the messenger. Humans are not sinless but messengers are protected from major sins but not from minor sins .

Allah has established proof against His servants by sending the Messengers and sending down the Books. They were not sent to one nation to the exclusion of others. Rather they were sent to all nations, in different places and at different times, as Allah say

“Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them.” [Faatir 3524]

Muslims have to believe in all the prophets and messengers of God, equally, without distinction. In the Holy Quran (2:136, 285, and 3:84 etc.) it is stated clearly: "We make no distinction between them".

“Indeed, We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people and he said: “O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day!” [Al-A’raf 7: 59]


The Quran mentions the names of 25 prophets and indicates there were others. It says:
“Of some messengers We have already told you the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct.” (Quran 4:164)

The Names of the 25 Prophets Mentioned are as follows:
Adam
Idris (Enoch)
Nuh (Noah)
Hud (Heber)
Salih (Methusaleh)
Lut (Lot)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Ismail (Ishmael)
Ishaq (Isaac)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Shu’aib (Jethro)
Ayyub (Job)
Dhulkifl (Ezekiel)
Musa (Moses)
Harun (Aaron)
Dawud (David)
Sulayman (Solomon)
Ilias (Elias)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Zakariya (Zachariah)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad

So Muhammad peace be upon him did not come with a new message, it was the same teaching of all the messengers before him including Ibrahim, Jesus, and Moses peace be upon them all. The message stayed the same, worship one God without any partners.

We've already covered the whole Adam thing.. I would just reiterate that the idea you have of messengers being protected against major sins whilst being able to commit minor sins, is unworkable. God gave us free will, God allowed Adam the free will to commit the greatest sin against God He could.. Why would God then take that free will away or reduce it for prophets? It's tantamount to God saying.. "Shouldn't have given mankind free will... I will in future for certain people take away some of that free will to protect them from making bad choices". Besides my believing this protections against major sins aren't you deciding yourself what constitutes a major sin before God? We have no such illusions of grandeur.. A sin is a sin, none are protected as by God given free will the choice remains our own. We answer for our choices if we choose wrongly.. It's simples.
I won't list the Biblical prophets... Men and women.. They are too numerous there's about 135 named prophets but a great many others besides. The majority of these prophets foretold the coming of the Messiah, and how mankind would be saved by Him. Others brought revelations for certain people at certain crucial times in the history of Gods chosen people. Others authored Covenants with God for people to live by. It was never only one message of worship God alone with no partners... Gods chosen people were already doing that, except for some times they lapsed into idolatry and for that they were punished.

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Christianity

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You would expect that major events such as the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ, that make up the entire case for Christianity, to be at least prophesied by the prophets/ messengers in the old testament, without any ambiguity, and without any deliberate mistranslations and lies. The Truth and the sad reality for the believers in the crucifixion, "trinity", doesn't even exist in the entire Bible.

So what were the messengers teaching before the coming of “son of God”?

The same massage of Islam “.. None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God…” (Quran 3:62)

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me “Exodus 20:3 = Deuteronomy 5:7

Even Jesus peace be upon him said the same [And one of the scribes came, and … asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:] (Mark 12:28-29, KJV)

[Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.] (Matthew 5:17)

In fact according to the bible the prophets prayed the way Muslims pray

"And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed (Matthew 26:39)
"And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped." (Exodus 34:8)
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship (Joshua 5:14)

Yes, you would expect to find the major events the birth, death and resurrection of The Christ foretold. Which they are. I think you misunderstand the biblical prophets and see them in the same way as you see your prophet of Islam. The prophets brought an understanding of who God was, an understanding of a knowable God, a God who wished to commune with His creation, a God who guided His creation and set them rules to live by, a God who was merciful when through weakness those rules were broken, a God who ensured through the perfect plan and the greatest act of agape love His creation would be redeemed.

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Conclusion

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Islam is the religion, which was given to Adam peace be upon him the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets, may Allah exalt their mention, sent by Allah to humankind. Islam means the complete submission and obedience to Allah (God). Therefore, all prophets were indeed MUSLIMS because they were true submitters to the will of ALLAH, the Creator. Prophet Muhammad peace upon him was the seal of prophets, he was sent to present Allah's revelation in its final form and for the last time. This was necessary because the message delivered by the previous Prophets and Messengers, peace upon them all, had been corrupted or distorted by their followers. Allah took it upon Himself to guard the last message (i.e. the Quran) from corruption. He says in the Quran :"Verily, it is We Who have sent down the message (i. e., the Quran) and surely, We will be its guardian.” [Quran 15:9]

if the only requirement of being considered a Muslim is submitting to God completely, then why are the Jews and Christians who submit to God every day of their lives with sincere hearts and love that knows no bounds not considered muslims?

as for the whole corruption issue of the previous scriptures.. Best not go there, as we know you can offer no real proof of any such claim. There's enough been said already, and despite the claim that proof was there none was produced.

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In contrast the trinity in Christianity does not make any sense,

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“The One God exists in Three Persons and One Substance." God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit., and those three are one, and equal. Do the scriptures show Jesus and his Father to be co-equal? Jesus himself answers at John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I am." Non of the prophets taught trinity. The whole religion is based on the dying son who will die for our sins but he does not even mention it! so God sacrificed himself to himself so human kind can go back to heaven as the sin of Adam made us unholy. God does not want to forgive the sin of Adam, instead he sends his son ( that is him too) to be humiliated, spat on, and killed on the cross, and that the only way to forgive human kind!! It makes perfect sense !

Christianity makes prefect sense... From a Biblical perspective from Adam the first to the last Adam ... Jesus. It's the culmination of Gods perfect plan of redemption. It is the only way as far as I can see. It comes down to sin.. God Himself decreed how sin must be paid for. It's not that God does not want to just forgive the sin of Adam.. But to do so arbitrarily without a penalty being paid goes against Gods nature of being Just.. God out of His divine love and mercy paid the penalty on our behalf so we don't have to endure the second death... The first death is nothing in comparison and nothing more than a gateway from this life to the next.. It's what lays beyond this life we have that has greater significance to God as that is eternal... This life we are just passing through. I can't see what Islam offers which is anyway as good or better than what I already have. Why would I trade a certainty for a doubt?

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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greetings Huria, firstly I feel your thread would be better named "which makes more sense Islam or a muslims interpretation of Christianity".. Because that's what you have here in your portrayal of Christianity. Which is not according to The Bible or Christian doctrine. So is it fair to say which makes more sense if you do not understand what you are making comparison with? Christians don't believe God left mankind without guidance for thousands of years.. Because we have the Torah and the Gospel and all the teachings of the Prophets from Abraham to Jesus. Jesus said with Him it was finished that's why we are not expecting another prophet... Also we are warned that any prophet who subsequently comes with a message that does not proclaim Jesus as Lord, then that is a false prophet and false revelation and we should not be following such. Many have come and many have been rejected. Not only is Islam's message different it is diametrically opposed to Christianity... On the key points it proposes the opposite. So I see that has having massive consequences on my eternal salvation and so cannot blindly accept such on the basis of one mans testimony as a prophet, without clear evidence. I have not seen that clear evidence, the fact that many have and converted to Islam means nothing.. As each person has an individual journey.


[COLOR=#ff0000]

you start off correctly enough, One God exists in three persons and one substance... Though I would have said essence rather than substance. However, you are in error when you say we believe they are equal. As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD. Neither the Son.. (Gods Word - Jesus) or the Spirit work independently of the Father. That is why Jesus said the Father is greater than I.. And why Jesus also said He (Jesus) will send the Spirit (Paraclete) to guide the disciples after His ascension. So we will never say any other than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit... We know all worship is to God.. His Word and Spirit are God. Anyway, enough.. I don't want to cabbage your head with stuff you can't understand, and really you don't need to as a Muslim it's not for you to worry about.

[COLOR=#ff0000]

this is your problem, you believe that because the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then it was simply made up. You won't find any verse that mentions three gods in one because that's NOT what the trinity doctrine stands for. The trinity is NOT biblical teaching and you will not find any verses saying it is, it's a term arrived at, after great study of the scriptures over hundreds of years in an effort to explain the nature of God as told by God Himself through His prophets. The word Tawheed is not to be found in the Quran .. But would you deny the concept of Gods oneness is found within its pages? In fact, muslims cannot satisfactorily explain the concept of "oneness" .. A thread exists here where a past member issued a challenge to muslims to explain exactly that, it remains unanswered. There are many verses in the Bible both OT and NT that point to Gods triune nature or a plurality in the Godhead if you wish.. John 5:7 is not one of them. Besides common sense dictates that if the creation reflects the creator then absolute oneness would exist in nature... Does it?

[COLOR=#ff0000]

there is no verse with Jesus saying "worship me".. However, there are many instances where He accepted worship and did not rebuke those who worshipped Him. Just because Jesus did not say the direct words.. "I am divine" does not mean he did not imply such indirectly and by His actions. As for Jesus not saying He was one of three gods... Well, that quite frankly is offensive! All His teaching was to show us the ONE true God.. There has only ever been ONE God in Christianity..
Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same. So your inferences aren't applicable.

[COLOR=#ff0000]

We've already covered the whole Adam thing.. I would just reiterate that the idea you have of messengers being protected against major sins whilst being able to commit minor sins, is unworkable. God gave us free will, God allowed Adam the free will to commit the greatest sin against God He could.. Why would God then take that free will away or reduce it for prophets? It's tantamount to God saying.. "Shouldn't have given mankind free will... I will in future for certain people take away some of that free will to protect them from making bad choices". Besides my believing this protections against major sins aren't you deciding yourself what constitutes a major sin before God? We have no such illusions of grandeur.. A sin is a sin, none are protected as by God given free will the choice remains our own. We answer for our choices if we choose wrongly.. It's simples.
I won't list the Biblical prophets... Men and women.. They are too numerous there's about 135 named prophets but a great many others besides. The majority of these prophets foretold the coming of the Messiah, and how mankind would be saved by Him. Others brought revelations for certain people at certain crucial times in the history of Gods chosen people. Others authored Covenants with God for people to live by. It was never only one message of worship God alone with no partners... Gods chosen people were already doing that, except for some times they lapsed into idolatry and for that they were punished.
[COLOR=#0000cd]


Yes, you would expect to find the major events the birth, death and resurrection of The Christ foretold. Which they are. I think you misunderstand the biblical prophets and see them in the same way as you see your prophet of Islam. The prophets brought an understanding of who God was, an understanding of a knowable God, a God who wished to commune with His creation, a God who guided His creation and set them rules to live by, a God who was merciful when through weakness those rules were broken, a God who ensured through the perfect plan and the greatest act of agape love His creation would be redeemed.
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[COLOR=#ff0000]

if the only requirement of being considered a Muslim is submitting to God completely, then why are the Jews and Christians who submit to God every day of their lives with sincere hearts and love that knows no bounds not considered muslims?

as for the whole corruption issue of the previous scriptures.. Best not go there, as we know you can offer no real proof of any such claim. There's enough been said already, and despite the claim that proof was there none was produced.
[/B]


Christianity makes prefect sense... From a Biblical perspective from Adam the first to the last Adam ... Jesus. It's the culmination of Gods perfect plan of redemption. It is the only way as far as I can see. It comes down to sin.. God Himself decreed how sin must be paid for. It's not that God does not want to just forgive the sin of Adam.. But to do so arbitrarily without a penalty being paid goes against Gods nature of being Just.. God out of His divine love and mercy paid the penalty on our behalf so we don't have to endure the second death... The first death is nothing in comparison and nothing more than a gateway from this life to the next.. It's what lays beyond this life we have that has greater significance to God as that is eternal... This life we are just passing through. I can't see what Islam offers which is anyway as good or better than what I already have. Why would I trade a certainty for a doubt?

Peace unto you.

I will try to make this a simple response :

First : jesus never said it was finished by him even the alpha and omega passage does not imply that since the first and the last is god , also as for the gospels well how could you claim that the christians had the gospel of jesus if the fact is that earliest gospel according to christian tradition which is mark was written 40 AD at best guesses, and the gospel of john the last gospel was written 90 AD. If you are talking orally then the four gospels we have today contain many varriation between each other and many varriation with earlier manuscripts. As for the one of the reasons God sent the prophets was because the jews use to manipulate the original torah. There are many evidences of Islam being the right religion there are many prophecies that existed about prophet Muhammed peace be upon him , yet we do not have any single passage about trinity in the entire bible !!!!!!!!!!

Second : The fact that the father is greater , means that the father and the son are not of the same essence here you clearly contradict your own statement. As for them working not working independatly well that does not make jesus a god rather it makes him more of a prophet than ever since all prophets do not work independatly from god , thats why they are prophets they preach god's message bu the orders of god. As for sayong that jesus and the spirit and the father are just one god well that also contradicted your first statement when you said :

As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD.

So either the father is God whereas jesus and the holy spirit are not god or all of them are one god which means that the father is not god entirelly but a part of god!!!!!
By the way the paraclete is the name of the prophet Muhammed in greek , it means the comforter
however you might say that it is stated that he is the holy spirit , well there are many problems with that one problem is that : one of the earliest bibles which is the codex syriacus, written in the 5th century do not mention the word holy in John 14:26 rather the text goes like this :

"Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not paraclete, the holy spirit

A spirit can also be a prophet based on the gospel of john :
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
This is just a simple example

Third : I think you are confusing between infalibility of the prophets and free will , the prophets were not infalubull because of a certain removal of free will rather an extreme faith and devotion to god and thats why they were chosen as prophets, they have free will but they always used it in righteousness.
As for the prophecies about the crusifiction of jesus , we have already discussed it before and shown that there is no such thing in the OT rather musunderstandings by modern christians. We do not deny that the OT prophecised about jesus the messiah but not as you are putting it.

Fourth :There are no prophecies in the OT that states a crusifiction , ressurection or so rather misunderstandings which I have pointed out before. However here you are contradicting your first statement in your response . If god revealed himself in a certain view for thousands and thousands of years before Jesus (non tinitarian) and then Jesus came and revealed another thing saying that god had a plan and he is of three essences (trinity). Would that not be the same thing you accuse Islam with??!!!

Fifth:I think I have brought enough proof in previous discussions and examples how the gospels today are corrupt :

examples:

1. We do not know who wrote the gospels it is credited to people without evidence , people who spoke aramaic and apparantly in the end of their lives learned to read and write Greek!!!

2. The oldest new testement manuscript wich is named p52 a small fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND CENTURY contains some variations

3.The oldest COMPLETE NEW TESTEMENT Codex SinaiticuDating to almost 350 AD conatains multiple multiple variations , such as the resurection story in mark ends at :
”8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

The rest Does not exist , Check it out for yourself :
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=ESV

The jews are not submissive to god because they do not belive in jesus as the messiah prophet and muhammed as the last prophet peace be upon them , christians same but they belive in jesus as a part of a trinitarian god which jesus did not teach

Sixth: Christianity does not make sinse:
1. it says that humanity inheritted the first and deadly sin of the first man which was the eating of a fruit from a tree!!1
2. It belives in a trinitarian god while claiming that it is monotheistic religion
3. Believes in trinity while no refference to that in the OT
4. God waited thousands of years to send his own son to be humiliated and die on the cross so that he could bare the sins of humanity in order to save them from the sin of eating a fruit from a tree!!!Why wait thousand of years instead of just forgivving them if he is the god of love
5. God orderred the killing of all women, children, cattle on the OT and then claimed to be the god of love in the NT!!!
6. God leaves humanity after jesus with no law !!!! rather law becomes a curse!!!!!

peace

[huria]

you start off correctly enough, One God exists in three persons and one substance... Though I would have said essence rather than substance.

Pandora,I am using your scholars definitions to trinity not my own definition to what trinity means. For you, I think you like to pick and choose what you like in your religion, I am not discussing your choice, I am discussing the difference according what your scholars say.


The definition I used “One God exists in three persons and one substance” according to The Nicene Faith: Formation Of Christian Theology by John Behr (Jun 30, 2004) ISBN 088141266X pages 3-4.

Now what is an essence? What are they Gods with different flavours?

However, you are in error when you say we believe they are equal. As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD. Neither the Son.. (Gods Word - Jesus) or the Spirit work independently of the Father.

So they are three Gods, one bigger than the other, so do not tell us you worship one God, you worship three gods with different roles.

Again when I said equal, it is not from my head, it is what the doctrine is based on, not sure you know which religion you are following but the trinity claim that they are equal Gods, there is even a poem for it “We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.” Life in the Trinity: (An Introduction to Theology with the Help of the Church Fathers by Donald Fairbairn (Sep 28, 2009) ISBN 0830838732 pages 48-50)

why Jesus also said He (Jesus) will send the Spirit (Paraclete) to guide the disciples after His ascension.

After his ascension? So if it is holy spirit cannot work unless Jesus peace be upon him depart. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you” John 16:7-14 " the spirit like brother Mohammed mentioned it means a prophet.

this is your problem, you believe that because the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then it was simply made up. You won't find any verse that mentions three gods in one because that's NOT what the trinity doctrine stands for. The trinity is NOT biblical teaching and you will not find any verses saying it is, it's a term arrived at, after great study of the scriptures over hundreds of years in an effort to explain the nature of God as told by God Himself through His prophets. The word Tawheed is not to be found in the Quran .

Nice one Pandora, I am not looking merely for the word trinity, I am talking about the doctrine itself, and you know it. Lol Tawheed not mentioned that is funny, tawheed means believing in the ONENESS of Allah.

How many times is it mentioned in the Quran that Allah is One and Only?? The concept of worshiping one God is very explicit in the Quran. Ask a two year old mulsim who do you worship, and he will be able to explain it to you. In contrast, ask a Christian adult to explain to you the trinity they will not be able to.

So how fair is it that God almighty link our salvation to something nobody in the world can understand, and nobody can get that concept from the book, unless you twist words, and pick and choose what you like. The message of salvation has to be crystal clear, because God is fair.

but would you deny the concept of Gods oneness is found within its pages? In fact, muslims cannot satisfactorily explain the concept of "oneness" .. A thread exists here where a past member issued a challenge to muslims to explain exactly that, it remains unanswered.

Seriously?? Show me the tread, what is there to explain? God is one, no sons, no daughters, just one. He does not get born, or breast fed, or carried in the womb for 9 months !!

“The One and Only .He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him." [Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

there is no verse with Jesus saying "worship me".. However, there are many instances where He accepted worship and did not rebuke those who worshipped Him. Just because Jesus did not say the direct words.. "I am divine" does not mean he did not imply such indirectly and by His actions. As for Jesus not saying He was one of three gods... Well, that quite frankly is offensive! All His teaching was to show us the ONE true God.. There has only ever been ONE God in Christianity..
Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same. So your inferences aren't applicable.

Again more reasons why Christianity does not make sense. Lets summarise

· Nothing about the triune god/s in the bible explicitly, just vague verse which mean this or that
· Jesus peace upon him never said worship me in the bible
· The father is not equal to Jesus even though Christians been saying otherwise
· So Jesus been a prophet make more sense which is the concept of my thread
· None of the messengers before Jesus peace upon him prophesied about his birth, death and resurrection in the bible even though he is the saviour son of God.

The story of Islam is continuation of the same message but in Christianity today they claim that God sent messengers saying the God is one, then changed his mind, and made them 3 or 3 in one, and the evidence?? None

From this is clear that Christianity does not make any sense to any unbiased person.

[pandora]

Quote

I will try to make this a simple response :

First : jesus never said it was finished by him even the alpha and omega passage does not imply that since the first and the last is god , also as for the gospels well how could you claim that the christians had the gospel of jesus if the fact is that earliest gospel according to christian tradition which is mark was written 40 AD at best guesses, and the gospel of john the last gospel was written 90 AD. If you are talking orally then the four gospels we have today contain many varriation between each other and many varriation with earlier manuscripts. As for the one of the reasons God sent the prophets was because the jews use to manipulate the original torah. There are many evidences of Islam being the right religion there are many prophecies that existed about prophet Muhammed peace be upon him , yet we do not have any single passage about trinity in the entire bible !!!!!!!!!!

i don't recall bringing up the alpha / omega passage. Not sure why you have. You have no proof regards the Jews corrupting the Torah. There is no evidence of prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the Bible.. You just believe there are. Our salvation does NOT rely on the trinity.

Quote

Second : The fact that the father is greater , means that the father and the son are not of the same essence here you clearly contradict your own statement. As for them working not working independatly well that does not make jesus a god rather it makes him more of a prophet than ever since all prophets do not work independatly from god , thats why they are prophets they preach god's message bu the orders of god. As for sayong that jesus and the spirit and the father are just one god well that also contradicted your first statement when you said :

Quote

As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD.

Jesus is not A God, so please stop saying He is.

Quote

So either the father is God whereas jesus and the holy spirit are not god or all of them are one god which means that the father is not god entirelly but a part of god!!!!!
By the way the paraclete is the name of the prophet Muhammed in greek , it means the comforter
however you might say that it is stated that he is the holy spirit , well there are many problems with that one problem is that : one of the earliest bibles which is the codex syriacus, written in the 5th century do not mention the word holy in John 14:26 rather the text goes like this :

Quote

"Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not paraclete, the holy spirit

A spirit can also be a prophet based on the gospel of john :
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1-3)
This is just a simple example

the Paraclete ... Is nothing whatsoever to do with prophet Mohammed.. You just think it does.

Quote

Third : I think you are confusing between infalibility of the prophets and free will , the prophets were not infalubull because of a certain removal of free will rather an extreme faith and devotion to god and thats why they were chosen as prophets, they have free will but they always used it in righteousness.
As for the prophecies about the crusifiction of jesus , we have already discussed it before and shown that there is no such thing in the OT rather musunderstandings by modern christians. We do not deny that the OT prophecised about jesus the messiah but not as you are putting it.

Prophets were men, and therefore sinned.. And so they were in need of a saviour as we all are. You have proven nothing in regards to the crucifixion... You just think you have. BTW.. It's spelt CRUCIFIXION... Which I'm sure you're aware but that old and tired Muslim insult crucifiction.. I guess you could not resist.. lol.

Quote

Fourth :There are no prophecies in the OT that states a crusifiction , ressurection or so rather misunderstandings which I have pointed out before. However here you are contradicting your first statement in your response . If god revealed himself in a certain view for thousands and thousands of years before Jesus (non tinitarian) and then Jesus came and revealed another thing saying that god had a plan and he is of three essences (trinity). Would that not be the same thing you accuse Islam with??!!!

Jesus revealed God to us. God is One. Jesus is His word. Jesus is the message not the messenger.

Quote

Fifth:I think I have brought enough proof in previous discussions and examples how the gospels today are corrupt :

Quote

examples:

1. We do not know who wrote the gospels it is credited to people without evidence , people who spoke aramaic and apparantly in the end of their lives learned to read and write Greek!!!

2. The oldest new testement manuscript wich is named p52 a small fragment of the gospel of John dating back to the FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND CENTURY contains some variations

3.The oldest COMPLETE NEW TESTEMENT Codex SinaiticuDating to almost 350 AD conatains multiple multiple variations , such as the resurection story in mark ends at :
”8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

The rest Does not exist , Check it out for yourself :
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=ESV

The jews are not submissive to god because they do not belive in jesus as the messiah prophet and muhammed as the last prophet peace be upon them , christians same but they belive in jesus as a part of a trinitarian god which jesus did not teach

your proofs may be satisfactory to you and muslims on Bible corruption.. And I understand why it is of great importance for muslims to find this proof... Although I don't see why you should feel Christians should accept it. I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet... On that basis I am not a Muslim. I don't answer to you for how I view God or how I believe God has revealed Himself to me through Jesus Christ.

Quote

Sixth: Christianity does not make sinse:
1. it says that humanity inheritted the first and deadly sin of the first man which was the eating of a fruit from a tree!!1
2. It belives in a trinitarian god while claiming that it is monotheistic religion
3. Believes in trinity while no refference to that in the OT
4. God waited thousands of years to send his own son to be humiliated and die on the cross so that he could bare the sins of humanity in order to save them from the sin of eating a fruit from a tree!!!Why wait thousand of years instead of just forgivving them if he is the god of love
5. God orderred the killing of all women, children, cattle on the OT and then claimed to be the god of love in the NT!!!
6. God leaves humanity after jesus with no law !!!! rather law becomes a curse!!!!!

peace

It doesn't matter .. In the grand scheme of things.. What you think of Christianity or how much you hate or dislike Christians. God places us where we are in life. I pray God guides you to His divine love.

Peace unto you.

[pandora]

Quote

you start off correctly enough, One God exists in three persons and one substance... Though I would have said essence rather than substance.

Pandora,I am using your scholars definitions to trinity not my own definition to what trinity means. For you, I think you like to pick and choose what you like in your religion, I am not discussing your choice, I am discussing the difference according what your scholars say.


The definition I used “One God exists in three persons and one substance” according to The Nicene Faith: Formation Of Christian Theology by John Behr (Jun 30, 2004) ISBN 088141266X pages 3-4.

Now what is an essence? What are they Gods with different flavours?

what do you mean by scholars?...essence.. Substance.. I personally like the term essence. It's no big deal. Unless you choose to make it one.

However, you are in error when you say we believe they are equal. As they are not equal in authority, as all authority is with the Father.. GOD. Neither the Son.. (Gods Word - Jesus) or the Spirit work independently of the Father.

Quote

So they are three Gods, one bigger than the other, so do not tell us you worship one God, you worship three gods with different roles.

Again when I said equal, it is not from my head, it is what the doctrine is based on, not sure you know which religion you are following but the trinity claim that they are equal Gods, there is even a poem for it “We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.” Life in the Trinity: (An Introduction to Theology with the Help of the Church Fathers by Donald Fairbairn (Sep 28, 2009) ISBN 0830838732 pages 48-50)

no.. They are not three gods, and quite frankly I'm getting fed up of repeating it.. As we do not rely on the doctrine of the trinity for salvation. I really don't see why it's such an issue for you.

why Jesus also said He (Jesus) will send the Spirit (Paraclete) to guide the disciples after His ascension.

Quote

After his ascension? So if it is holy spirit cannot work unless Jesus peace be upon him depart. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you” John 16:7-14 " the spirit like brother Mohammed mentioned it means a prophet.

there was no need of the spirits guidance when the world had the Word. The Spirit was in evidence BEFORE the birth of Christ as it was After the resurrection.. You can interpret the term Spirit as you wish.. The Bible is clear that the Spirit is NOT a prophet and the Spirit is NOT an angel. Blasphemy against the Spirit is an unforgivable sin... On that basis, the Holy Spirit as portrayed in the Bible is most definitely not a mortal person.. Nor an angel... Seeing as angels are NOT above God.

this is your problem, you believe that because the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible then it was simply made up. You won't find any verse that mentions three gods in one because that's NOT what the trinity doctrine stands for. The trinity is NOT biblical teaching and you will not find any verses saying it is, it's a term arrived at, after great study of the scriptures over hundreds of years in an effort to explain the nature of God as told by God Himself through His prophets. The word Tawheed is not to be found in the Quran .

Quote

Nice one Pandora, I am not looking merely for the word trinity, I am talking about the doctrine itself, and you know it. Lol Tawheed not mentioned that is funny, tawheed means believing in the ONENESS of Allah.

How many times is it mentioned in the Quran that Allah is One and Only?? The concept of worshiping one God is very explicit in the Quran. Ask a two year old mulsim who do you worship, and he will be able to explain it to you. In contrast, ask a Christian adult to explain to you the trinity they will not be able to.

I'm not talking about the concept being mentioned. I am talking about explaining the concept. In the same way you expect Christians to be able to explain the trinity.

Quote

So how fair is it that God almighty link our salvation to something nobody in the world can understand, and nobody can get that concept from the book, unless you twist words, and pick and choose what you like. The message of salvation has to be crystal clear, because God is fair.

yes, the message of salvation is crystal clear.. In the Bible. I have yet to find that clarity in the Quran.. Maybe I need to find some Islamic scholar to explain it to me. I really don't know why God's "final revelation" should not be clear to understand for all from scholar to simple folk.

but would you deny the concept of Gods oneness is found within its pages? In fact, muslims cannot satisfactorily explain the concept of "oneness" .. A thread exists here where a past member issued a challenge to muslims to explain exactly that, it remains unanswered.

Quote

Seriously?? Show me the tread, what is there to explain? God is one, no sons, no daughters, just one. He does not get born, or breast fed, or carried in the womb for 9 months !!

“The One and Only .He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him." [Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

The trinity is NOT God, it is a doctrine from man to explain the concept of God as revealed in the Bible. The very idea that God was born or breast fed or indeed carried in the womb for 9 months.. Just goes to show the depth of your misunderstanding. I wonder who this sura was revealed to? Obviously not the People of the Book.. Who always knew God was never born, breast fed or carried in a womb. Why the mention of daughters? Who do you have in mind?
YHWH was always One supreme creator not created.. As His word is not created and His Spirit is not created.

there is no verse with Jesus saying "worship me".. However, there are many instances where He accepted worship and did not rebuke those who worshipped Him. Just because Jesus did not say the direct words.. "I am divine" does not mean he did not imply such indirectly and by His actions. As for Jesus not saying He was one of three gods... Well, that quite frankly is offensive! All His teaching was to show us the ONE true God.. There has only ever been ONE God in Christianity..
Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same. So your inferences aren't applicable.

Quote

Again more reasons why Christianity does not make sense. Lets summarise

· Nothing about the triune god/s in the bible explicitly, just vague verse which mean this or that
· Jesus peace upon him never said worship me in the bible
· The father is not equal to Jesus even though Christians been saying otherwise
· So Jesus been a prophet make more sense which is the concept of my thread
· None of the messengers before Jesus peace upon him prophesied about his birth, death and resurrection in the bible even though he is the saviour son of God.

The story of Islam is continuation of the same message but in Christianity today they claim that God sent messengers saying the God is one, then changed his mind, and made them 3 or 3 in one, and the evidence?? None

From this is clear that Christianity does not make any sense to any unbiased person.

Quote

Islam is NOT the continuation of the same message found in the previous scriptures.

Peace unto you.

[pandora]

https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t184784.html

For Huria... Maybe you would like to answer the point raised in this thread.

[pandora]

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)


14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

[محمد سني 1989]

Quote

i don't recall bringing up the alpha / omega passage. Not sure why you have. You have no proof regards the Jews corrupting the Torah. There is no evidence of prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the Bible.. You just believe there are. Our salvation does NOT rely on the trinity.



Jesus is not A God, so please stop saying He is. [/FONT][/RIGHT]
[SIZE=5]


the Paraclete ... Is nothing whatsoever to do with prophet Mohammed.. You just think it does.



Prophets were men, and therefore sinned.. And so they were in need of a saviour as we all are. You have proven nothing in regards to the crucifixion... You just think you have. BTW.. It's spelt CRUCIFIXION... Which I'm sure you're aware but that old and tired Muslim insult crucifiction.. I guess you could not resist.. lol.



Jesus revealed God to us. God is One. Jesus is His word. Jesus is the message not the messenger.



your proofs may be satisfactory to you and muslims on Bible corruption.. And I understand why it is of great importance for muslims to find this proof... Although I don't see why you should feel Christians should accept it. I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet... On that basis I am not a Muslim. I don't answer to you for how I view God or how I believe God has revealed Himself to me through Jesus Christ.



It doesn't matter .. In the grand scheme of things.. What you think of Christianity or how much you hate or dislike Christians. God places us where we are in life. I pray God guides you to His divine love.

Peace unto you.

First : there are many corruption evidence of the torah , historically speaking . What christians claim is because they take in the torah in face value from the jews . As for the prophet in the torah :

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

DEutronomy 18:18

The brothers of the israelites are the ishmaelites

13The oracle about Arabia. In the thickets of Arabia you must spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites. 14Bring water for the thirsty, O inhabitants of the land of Tema, Meet the fugitive with bread.15For they have fled from the swords, From the drawn sword, and from the bent bow And from the press of battle.

Isaiah 21: 13-15

this describes the hijra to medina which is in the wider area of tema

20"As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation

Genesis 17: 20


clearly describing the time the arabs became a great nation during the time of the prophet in fact jesus describes this:

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:43

his Name in the hebrew bible :
His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

Song of solomon 5: 16


The actual hebrew text :(in hebrew ):


"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."



this would make the actual text as :

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Muhammed . This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.


Also :
And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

Haggai 2:7


However the actual translation is :


And I will shake all nations, and the Muhammed of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.


This is also described by Godfrey Higgins in his book :


From

this root,the pretended prophet mohammed or mohamet had his name " sir hggin says ,"

here Mohammed is expressly foretold by haggi ,and by name

, there is no interpolation here

.

there is no evading this clear text and its meaning

Source:
Anacalypsis an Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis



http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=...&q=%2C&f=false


Also brother نيو has already brought this subject up:


https://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t196248.html

Second:

You claim jesus is god your lord part of trinity right??? so why argue???


Third:As for the paraclete if you claim it is the holy spirit then you are wrong for two reasons : 1. the original text did not state holy rather the spirit which could be applied to a prophet , a man

2. the holy spirit was already with them then how will he send the holy spirit if is already there:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."(John 20:21-22)

3. there is another passage which says another comforter !!!! the holy spirit is only one so this can only reffer to a prophet :

John 14:16"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"


4. The holy spirit do not speak or testify :
john 15:26"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

An important notion also is that the greek word parakletos does not actually mean the comforter rather comforter is paracalon , the actual text says parakleytos . The actual meaning of the word the comforter in hebrew is mnahem

Another important prophecy is what jesus peace be upon him in john stated :

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


John 1: 19-21


This clearly escribes that they were waiting for a prophet coming which jesus peace be upon hm denied to be

These are just some simple examples

Fourth : If you are going to ignore my responses about your so called crusiFICTION then you are just running away , if you seriously think I have proved nothing then have the courage to respond or else if you don't have an answer then stop making such funny claims LOL you claim I did not prove anything YET you CAN'T answer
Yes they were men with faith which is why they were sinless since they were role models for humanity, how could god choose sinful persons to be role models !!!! sometimes extreme sins such as adultery , incest and drinking wine!!!

Fifth : If god in your understanding is really one then why do you still believe in trinity???

Sixth: Because the corruption of the gospels shows that it is NOT the word of god rather word of manipulators!!! So how could you still believe in such if you know for some reason that your holy book has been manipulated !!!

Seventh: What grand scheme , you are claiming two contradicting things: monotheism and trinity????

Eight : As for what you said about Paul well he is the same one who said this:

“Christ has ransomed us from the curse of the Law in as much as He became a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13)

He claims jesus bacame cursed

​Peace


peace

[huria]

no.. They are not three gods, and quite frankly I'm getting fed up of repeating it
You can repeat them as much as you want but repeating something is not answering or explaining.

The trinity is NOT God, it is a doctrine from man to explain the concept of God as revealed in the Bible
Really? Thanks for making that clear I thought it was God (!)(exclamation mark means sarcasm). I know it is not God like Tawheed is not God it is the concept of God. The fact remains no clear evidence of it in your book.

The very idea that God was born or breast fed or indeed carried in the womb for 9 months.. Just goes to show the depth of your misunderstanding.

OK explain to me then, please answer with yes or no
Do you consider Jesus peace upon him God?
Was Jesus born?
Was Jesus breast fed?
Was he carried in the womb for 9 months??

Are these stages not God, he only became God on the cross, and we skip the born part etc, and you pointing finger the blame at Islam is not cutting it Pandora, not sure who you kidding, we do not believe our God is born etc

As for your thread, there is no point on that thread, because you can not explain the trinity, you are trying to make the oneess of God complex. It is simple bring a two year old kid, and tell him God is one, he has no beginning and no end, he is one, no son or father, and then try to explain to him the trinity, God is one the father but he has son, who came to die for our sins and there is holy spirit too but all are one, see which concept he will gasp, and that is the point, you keep telling us our salvation does not depend on trinity, then take Jesus as a messenger not God, because that is the point.


if the only requirement of being considered a Muslim is submitting to God completely, then why are the Jews and Christians who submit to God every day of their lives with sincere hearts and love that knows no bounds not considered muslims?

You Christians follow the law of Jesus peace upon him?
Jesus said
1. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it
2. Not and iota or a dot will pass from the law
3. Whoever relaxes one of the commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven!

What do you Christians do nowadays, do you follow the law? no you do not.


Obviously not the People of the Book.. Who always knew God was never born, breast fed or carried in a womb.

YES the Jews do not believe in a born God but you Christians however do, if you telling me you do not believe in Jesus as God then we have nothing to disagree on.

Why the mention of daughters? Who do you have in mind?

I have nothing in mind except that God does not have sons or daughters. Why do you think I have something in mind? Is it more insulting to God having daughters than sons?

Peace be upon those who follow guidance