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Originally Posted by
Burninglight
No, I asked for proof, and I receive none!
Yes you did in my last response example : ending of Mark. Your original question was the name and you know it
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Variations are not inspired, but the message we get out of the manuscripts after correcting nonsense errors are. Man makes mistakes in spite of that we can still see what God was doing and saying. It doesn't hurt the central gospel message. If you think it does, say how. Do you even know what the central gospel message is?
Smokescreen now you are trying to debate what the central message is??? Do you deny that the ressurection is part of the central theme??
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
As for Hafsa's copy being returned, this is known, but you neglect to mention that it was also destroyed after her death. Why didn't Allah guard what Uthman used to recompile the Quran you now use? This does nothing to inspire trust or to prove you now have a Quran that was perfectly preserved much less proof that it is God's word.
LOL yet you forgot to mention that the burning occurred 20 years later after Uthman's death and after all islamic countries had copies of the Quran so thus burning does not matter and it does not occur during the time of Uthman. Waht is important is we have these narrations to indicate it
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
That was the word used, but I know how Jesus meant it in context even though that wasn't stated, and you don't want to learn.
Here is a question : How do you know Jesus meant that
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
I will pray the same for you but remember I stated two questions for you above which I expect an answer in the next response of yours, lets see if you will answer or will you ignore it ?? Okay lets give you the quote integrity you want. The Quran states about the Injil:
And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). S. 5:46 Al-Hilali & Khan; cf. S. 57:27 (By the way didn't Allah know that Maryam was NOT the name of Jesus' Mother? Is that an error?)
Again you are ignoring my last response I already stated this was talking about the original Gospel not your Four corrupted read the verse :
and we gave him the injeel
also more importantly , Maryam , LOL you really do not know the difference in linguistic . Maryam مريم is the arabic translation of Mary , LOL your analogy and argument is really funny and reflects your own ignorance about Jesus and Mary. Their Hebrew original names were Yeshua and Miriyam but you would not get that since as you know little about the bible as you said LOL
He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet." S. 19:30 Arberry (BTW, there is nothing to back up that God sent Jesus a Book in the Scriptures that came before)
It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). S. 3:3 Al-Hilali & Khan (This would have been a perfect place for Allah to state that the torah and injeel were missing or corrupted, but he didn't)
LOL your statement here is funny because God did ORGINALLY send down the Torah and Gospel but then they were corrupted as OTHER VERSES say as I have showed
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah. What I tried to tell you that you said didn't exist is in Sura 19:30 and 3:3 confirms that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah with no mention of corruption or a missing injil. In fact, Allah tells Muhammad the Quran which means recitation was supposed to confirm the Scripture that came before, but it doesn't confirm it; instead it usurps it.
The confirmation is to the original manuscripts which were revealed to Moses and Jesus, your lack of knowledge led you to conclude that we muslims deny the revelation to Moses and Jesus , yet the verses specifically is talking about the original torah and gospel not the current corrupt manuscripts LOL that is pathetic
Plus you took certain verses misinterperate without even reading it (since all the verses talks about what was revealed to Moses and Jesus NOT what came after) and you also ognored these verses which I have already stated in response number 74:
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Originally Posted by
;محمد سني 1989
Here you go :
Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?Quran 1:75
Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion.
Quran 4: 46
So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.Quran 5:13
O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?
Quran 3:71
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79
From hadeeth :
Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:
Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."
Saheeh BukharyVol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850
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Originally Posted by
; Burninglight
The Qur'an SAYS MORE regarding the Injil:
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. ... S. 5:47 Al-Hilali & Khan That is me, I am the person of the Book speaking to 1989!!!
Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry
We do this. and we have received the torah and Injil from our Lord, but you would have us doubt AS ACCURATE what your book confirms we have received!!!
Copying and pasting while lying , this is a new level even for you
The context of the verse:
You stripped the verse out of its context intentionally :
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.49 And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
So If you actually read the verse right the verse is talking about the belivers during the time of Jesus not after , which why god said let the people of the gospel meaning the original gospel at the time of Jesus , then god said that he revealed the Quran to the prophet Muhammed and he should judge with what has been revieled to him and that the Quran had a criterion over the old scriptures. So the context is talking about the orginal gospel to the people at the time of Jesus
If you would have read the context you would have known !!!
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [Injil] (which are) with them. S. 7:157 Pickthall
[Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan This verse here proves to you that I didn't just make things up: The torah and gospel were sent to us and Allah tells (O Muhammad) this and he says nothing about it being corrupted. We still have the same torah and gospel Allah said he sent to us and your prophet was a witness to what you now say was corrupted.
LOL you think that we muslims call the original manuscripts by names other than torah and gospel!!!!! That proves you are completely oblivious
Again verses are talking about the Origianl Torah and Gospel which were revealed to Moses and Jesus which has been altered many times till what we have now!!!
A simple 5 year old muslim would know this but the church tradition holds its grasp on your mind and understanding
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
To me this verses makes clear that the Injil is the book of the Christians (the people of the Book) (ME), the book that is with me and which we Christians believe in. The Qur'an even tells us Christians to fully obey the Torah and the Injil that they had at the time your prophet was living. Can you answer to that?
Already did , or were you just sleeping and skimming through??
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
I see a discrepancy: When we look at the New Testament our Scriptures, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus".
HAHAHA I wonder why !!! maybe if you read the context of the verse
PS: Now you are asking the right question
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Now please pay attention to this:
Tell that to yourself
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
the Injil can either be a book given to Jesus, or it can be the book that the Christians have as their Scriptures, but it cannot be both.
You are totaly wright we say the book given to Jesus
and you have your current scripture meaning we are the followers of Jesus
You probably the follower of his enemy Satan and Paul
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Your prophet Muhammad apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Qur'an
Your personal opinions and claims without proof have no shread of validity or importance in a debate
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, he was, IMHO, clearly #### on the matter as you are. As I have mentioned many times to you, the essential nature of the Qur'an and the Bible are very different, but you insist on judging it the way you do the Quran.
#####
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
IOW, a book "given to Jesus" in the same way as Muhammad claims to have received the Qur'an does not exist. I have never claimed that such a book existed at any time nor do my Christians brothers and sisters. This claim of S. 5:46 is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of your prophet.
LOL apparantly you also lack some research about your own bible , Do you know what is Gospel Q ??? I think the answer is No you don't
LOL who is ignorant now Burningwithignorance LOL that is an appropriate name for you from now on
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Had the author of the Qur'an made only statements like those found in S. 5:46 and 19:30, it might have been an option for Muslims to claim that the Injil of Jesus was simply lost. Jesus received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Muslims could have said that the NT clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Qur'an, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Qur'an does not endorse it
LOL Burningignorance the NT is not the injil . Injiln انجيل in arabic means Gospel , thats why arab christians say injil of Mark, Matthew , Luke and John
Congradulations who have hit the world record of Ignorance!!!
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
, but instead the Quran imperfectly borrows the virgin birth story of Jesus from the Injil and denies the reason for his virgin birth instead of confirming it like Allah TOLD HIS MESSENGER IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO. You are stuck with a mess here.
Already answered that coward in my last response but you are trully Burningignorant
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
The Qur'an identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians, right?
WRONG , LOL it is what has been reviled to Jesus. Read the verse correctly
oh wait!!!!! I forgot you can't read right you are a follower of the foolish Paul
which is why Islam makes more sense , actually sorry the term is Islam has sense but christianity unfortunatily has no sense in it
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Islam's prophet projected his own ideas of receiving revelation of a book (the Qur'an) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book of Jesus that was and is still held sacred by his followers and us on the forum here must also have been a book given to Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given to your messenger). However, he was wrong about this, and you follow this error. This mistake exposes the Qur'an you follow, and that is why Christianity makes more sense than Islam. IMHO, the Qur'an is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author. When you point your finger at the Bible you have four pointing back at you.
LOL All this argument is false since you are basing it on the foolish conclusion of yours (no surprise there) that we say that the injil is the NT and current christian scripture , LOL as your foolish teacher you have commited the misunderstanding error
Lets simplify it for you :
Ingil = Original gospel revealed to Jesus
I don't think you get it , this is the ignorant presenting itself within Paul's words:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1 corinthians 11: 1
yet he call him a mystery :
And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
Colossians 4:3
And to prove the ignorance of you again as Paul is and always was
Here is what I actually asked :
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Originally Posted by
; محمد سني 1989
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Originally Posted by
; محمد سني 1989
Where in the Quran did God say that the torah and gospel as light and guidance
to the prophet !!!!!!!!
To the prophet , to the prophet, not to us
as you claimed where ????
This brings me up to ask you another question : Are such variations from different writters indpired by God
Where are the answers to my questions ????
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
You keep screaming the Bible is corrupted. Many Muslim do this so don't feel singled out. When the Qur'an contradicts the Bible, Muslims shout, "but the Bible is corrupted", as if that is the answer and solution to every such problem. This is the way you deal in debate
For weeks now I wanted an answer concerning the ending of Mark which you have not answered
So when we say it is corrupted , christians use such falasies to run away from confronting the truth about their bible
We do not care about the bible we do not recognize it as a ligitemate scripture. So we do not need to actually shout out when contradiction exists . Yet we keep hearing the same phrase again and again by ignorant christians like yourself
IT DOES NOT HURT THE CENTRAL THEME
LOL actually news ***** It does
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
. The Bible is corrupted it has variants that change the central gospel message, but it doesn't and you have not been able to prove how it has. You have been pawned and can't admit it. Why? Is it pride?
LOL , You have been smashed , cornered and debunked like any regular ignorant follower of Paul
Or else tell me how have you not still answered the corruption about the ressurection of Jesus in Mark !!!
Nothing you did not answer and you avoided it for weeks , so face the mirror and repeat your statement
But thank you for your confession
[QUOTE=;Burninglight]
Now let say why crying corruption won't work and kill this thing once and for all.
As I mentioned many times, the Qur'an never claims that the Injil is corrupted.
[QUOTE=;Burninglight]
LOL as usual Wrong statement which I Have proved you wrong in response 74
and which you admitted in response 76 when you say
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
All the verses you quoted from the Quran are accusatory toward people of the Scripture
Of course you pathetic attampt was to ignore the verses afterwards and then after a couple of responses bring the subject up
pathetic strategy which shows the weakness of its user
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
That is an inference you make. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture. What the Qur'an says about the Bible, lets investigates this matter closely and it shows that the Qur'an does not support the Muslim claim of NT Bible corruption; in fact, the Quran borrowed from it as I mentioned above. Why would it borrow from a corrupted book. LOL.
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.
Quran 3: 187
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Quran 2: 79
Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that
the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands
what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."
Saheeh Bukhary
Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 850
The verses speek for itself but ignorance is bliss
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Finally, even if there had been more variants then we know of (what you call corruption) of certain passages, these small changes and nonsense errors resulting in certain shifts of meaning don't effect the central gospel message, but you say it does, How?
Thank you for your second confession
Already gave you an example of a contradiction in the ressurection account between Mark and Matthew
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
The Qur'an was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad supposedly. It was (supposedly) not written by your prophet, but given to him by Allah through Gabriel.
Wrong again as usual , some were by Gabriel and some directly from God
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
OTOH, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did. Some of these memories are rejected by Muslims but some don't such as the satanic verses and many other such things that help us see why Christianity makes more sense than Islam.
THe bases of rejection comes from studying the chain of oral transmission . The fact that christians would nitpick from the hadeeths and choose narrations which are nonauthentic describes and completely embodies the ignorance of Paul who was a satanic worshipor :
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
or maybe it is Aron peace be upon him when the wroters of the bible accused him of making the golden calf and worshipping it
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Originally Posted by
;Burninglight
Would it be possible for anyone to change the Qur'an (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?
Without doubt, you will say "NO." But if it is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would you or any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Your thinking is not equal if you didn't think of this. Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it?
Actually if you would have read a shread of evidence on the history of the collection of the bible you would have known that the answer was yes people protested . The book of revelations was not adopted by many churches till the late 4th century as one example
It is your complete ignorance in history, facts, bible , Quran which is preasented in most christians today
This is one just one of the many examples why christianity actually has no sense in it
And Islam is superior
Thanks for the confessions by the way
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