Trinity and development of doctorine

[Burninglight]

Friend,

As I mentioned, when a person has emotions that doesn't mean he is not using his or her brain or heart. Like I said emotion is God given, and not necessarily a bad thing. I think you are confusing being emotional about something which is another way of saying reacting to something with knee jerk responses. That is not what I am doing. I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.
Look at how many responses I have given on the different threads, and no one appears to have a good comeback. I understand why, but do you? Maybe that is because they only speak and write Arabic. My responses are thought out carefully. I write only after careful deliberation. I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion. Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times. So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?

May God bring blessing and peace to you in Jesus name.

[3abd Arahman]

Burninglight, are you kidding? Is this your answer to all my previous posts?
Even your claims in your last post have been answered by me before in another thread, but you're just repeating the same claims and not even bothering to read what we write or answer it !!!!!

[Burninglight]

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Burninglight, are you kidding? Is this your answer to all my previous posts?
Even your claims in your last post have been answered by me before in another thread, but you're just repeating the same claims and not even bothering to read what we write or answer it !!!!!

You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive. Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts. Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary. In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend. Muslims repeat themselves many times as well saying the same things; so, address the issues again soak it bro like me maybe something will penetrate.

Peace

[3abd Arahman]

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You know I am not kidding. You confuse things by responding and then close a thread and respond somewhere else. It is like you are trying to be evasive.

Actually, I am not trying to be evasive, but I have answered in details all the points you were talking about, and this took me more than a week, and you didn't bother to discuss anything of what I wrote, and you just repeated some points that I have answered somewhere else !!!

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Instead of asking "Are you kidding..." address the issues on my last posts.

Ok, no problem. I will address again the issues in your last posts although I have addressed them before. But could you also address the issues in my posts that I wrote in more than 1 week when this thread was closed ?

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Do like me and say "As I mentioned" and repeat or paraphrase your responses in necessary.

Ok, I will.

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In my opinion, this response here is just another of your evasive tactics and contributes nothing to the dialogue. You trying to make me look like a clown or some kidding doesn't cut it friend.

Never mind about my tactics. Kindly read my posts and address the issues in them.

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I don't see the spiritual sense (or the human logic and reason) in turning to a religion of uncertainty as Abu Bakr points out by saying he couldn't trust the "Makr" (deception) of Allah, well, I trust him even less. I see Muslims as insecure in their religion.

I will just quote my previous answer to this point at this link http://splashurl.com/meqqdgt

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In Islam, you are 100 % safe as long as you believe in God, all of his messengers, all of his books and in judgement day and you do good deeds. This is the guarantee that the holy Quran gives to all people : (من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97 ( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97 So your security in Islam, depends on believing in the religion of God and doing rightousness However, we don't think that we are sure that we are 100% safe in judgement day, because we don't know how our deeds will be at our death ? At our death, will we be believers doing good deeds ? If so, we are safe but we don't know how will we be at our death. What about christianity? You think that you are safe because God made the Jews and Romans kill his son or himself on the cross !!! Surely, this is a very strange concept However, let me ask you a question Do you think that you are secure even if you kill other people or rob them or do very bad deeds just because you believe that God has sacrificed his son ? If so, then surely christianity is not the true religion because it encourages people to do bad deeds just because they believe that they are secure whatever their deeds are, as long as they believe that Jesus Pbuh was crucified If you think that to be secure, you must do good deeds, then this is the same as Islam, so there is no point at all in your objection In Islam we have hope in God and in the same time we fear him We hope that he will forgive us and have mercy on us and in the same time we fear his punishment Our fear from god prevents us from doing bad deeds Abu Bakr did not say that he does not trust God of course, but what he said means that he will fear God even if one of his legs was in paradise and the other is still outside it

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Even the fact that my posts have to be screened for approval shows a lack of trust in God and the poster especially after I have been posting nearly a 100 times.

Again I answered this at the same link :

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Well, this is just what you want to think I told you, we do this with all members whether muslims or christians We do this with christians, because some of them speak about Islam and Prophet Muhammad Pbuh in a very rude offending way

However, you now have a lot of posts really and it seems logic that your posts don't have to be screened first anymore, but of course I don't have the authority to decide this, I will contact the admins regarding this issue.

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So tell me, just why would I want to be a slave of the god of Islam like you and all Muslims, when I can be free and a child of the Most High God recorded in the Bible that you deny as God's road map to Salvation?

Again, I will just quote my answer which you can find at the same link

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Actually, according to your Bible, Jesus Pbuh himself is a servant of God Matthew 12 15 Jesus knew what the Pharisees were planning. So he left that place, and many people followed him. He healed all who were sick, 16 but he warned them not to tell others who he was. 17 This was to give full meaning to what Isaiah the prophet said when he spoke for God: 18 “Here is my servant, the one I have chosen. He is the one I love, and I am very pleased with him. So do you think that Jesus Pbuh is a servant or a slave of God and you are not ? It is wirth to mention that the word in the arabic translations of the Bible that is used instead of Servant in Matthew 12 is not خادم ( Khadem) which means servant but is Abd ( عبد) which means slave Actually according to the Bible you are surely a servant of God Let's read from Revelation 22 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown them to me.9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I’m a servant just like you and your brothers and sisters, the prophets, and those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” So the angel, John, the prophets and those who keep the words of the scroll - according to the Bible - are all servants of God Again the arabic word is Abd which means slave Surely being a slave or a servant of God is not something bad, it means that God owns you in a way that can be compared to a master owning his slave And this is surely true, God owns us and he has power and control over every single thing in our lives, we can't take a single breath unless he wills, everything that we have, God gave it to us : life, food , drink, health , money .... etc In this way we are servants and slaves of God In Christianity, God is described as a Father to show his love and mercy and men are described as his sons In islam, we don't describe God as a father and we don't describe ourselves as sons of God, because describing our relation to God in this way has been misused by christians. Some of the early christians used to describe Jesus Pbuh as son of God, to show that God loves him, exactly as David and Solomon has been described as sons of God in the OT. However, after describing Jesus as son of God to show that God loves him, people began to believe that this means that he is God. This is why we don't describe God as a father in Islam or say that we are the sons of God. However, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh taught us that God is not just as loving and merciful as a father, but that God is more loving and merciful than a mother. There’s a Hadith where a mother had lost her child during a battle, and she was looking for him fearing the worst. When she found him, she held him close and it was one of the most powerful scenes of love and mercy the companions have seen that they started to weep. Our Beloved peace be upon him said, “do you wonder at the mercy this mother had for her child? God is far more merciful to His servants than this mother is to her child!”

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I am being concise and articulate, and you haven't been able to gainsay my posts.

Could you tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay? Which points exactly have I not been able to answer properly? I think I have been able to gainsay all your posts. You claimed that Jesus Pbuh is divine because he was born from a virgin, and I told you that this is a ridiculous argument because his birth from a virgin is a miracle to show the power of God and that he can create people in a way that is not subject to physical and biological laws. You claimed that Jesus is divine because he is the word of God and everything has been created through him according to the fourth gospel, and I have been able to prove to you that the concept of the Logos or the word of God through which everything has been created has just been plagarized by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo. You claimed that Jesus is addressed as God in the epistle to Hebrews, and I proved to you that the author of this epistle is unknown and some early christians considered this epistle spurious, moreover the phrase is taken from the OT and the jews translate it to OJudge instead of OGod, and I showed you that even unitarian christians do not consider this as an evidence of divinity of Jesus Pbuh, and moreover the speaker addresses the person to whom he is speaking telling him (your God) so he is surely not speaking to God. You claimed that Uthman ibn Affan - may God be pleased with him - did some alterations to the text of the holy Quran when he burnt some Quranic texts that were present at his time, and I told you that he just wrote again the text that was collected by Abu Bakr, and the text that was collected by Abu Bakr was taken from the quranic text that was written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh used to read it, so no alterations were done. You claimed that there is an error in the holy Quran because it states that some people consider virgin Mary God, and I explained to you that according to thhe arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if the catholics worship virgin Mary - even if they don't say she is God - this means that they took her as a god according to the arabic language. Moreover, I've been able to show you some quotations from the Catholics which shows that some of them consider virgin Mary to be equal to God. So Could you please, tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay ? Could you also answer my posts ? You didn't answer me ..... How could Jesus Pbuh be God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God? How could Jesus be God while he himself said that the Father is the only God? How could he be God if he used to pray to God? How could he be God if he didn't know when Judgement day is? If you agree that the Bible is a man-made book that contains errors and spurious parts .... How do you trust it to take your faith from it? For example, how do you know that Jesus's resurrection story is not just a fake? Maybe he was not crucified and someone else was crucified as we muslims believe and as stated by some of the gnostic gospels, maybe he just died on the cross and the whole resurrection story is just a fake. How do you trust a book containing errors and spurious parts to be the source of your faith? What about the false prophecies in the Bible and the true prophecies in the Quran and Hadiths? I gave you examples for such prophecies.

[Burninglight]

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Actually, I am not trying to be evasive, but I have answered in details all the points you were talking about, and this took me more than a week, and you didn't bother to discuss anything of what I wrote, and you just repeated some points that I have answered somewhere else !!! Ok, no problem. I will address again the issues in your last posts although I have addressed them before. But could you also address the issues in my posts that I wrote in more than 1 week when this thread was closed ? Ok, I will. Never mind about my tactics. Kindly read my posts and address the issues in them. I will just quote my previous answer to this point at this link http://splashurl.com/meqqdgt Again I answered this at the same link : However, you now have a lot of posts really and it seems logic that your posts don't have to be screened first anymore, but of course I don't have the authority to decide this, I will contact the admins regarding this issue. Again, I will just quote my answer which you can find at the same link Could you tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay? Which points exactly have I not been able to answer properly? I think I have been able to gainsay all your posts. You claimed that Jesus Pbuh is divine because he was born from a virgin, and I told you that this is a ridiculous argument because his birth from a virgin is a miracle to show the power of God and that he can create people in a way that is not subject to physical and biological laws. You claimed that Jesus is divine because he is the word of God and everything has been created through him according to the fourth gospel, and I have been able to prove to you that the concept of the Logos or the word of God through which everything has been created has just been plagarized by the author of the fourth gospel from Philo. You claimed that Jesus is addressed as God in the epistle to Hebrews, and I proved to you that the author of this epistle is unknown and some early christians considered this epistle spurious, moreover the phrase is taken from the OT and the jews translate it to OJudge instead of OGod, and I showed you that even unitarian christians do not consider this as an evidence of divinity of Jesus Pbuh, and moreover the speaker addresses the person to whom he is speaking telling him (your God) so he is surely not speaking to God. You claimed that Uthman ibn Affan - may God be pleased with him - did some alterations to the text of the holy Quran when he burnt some Quranic texts that were present at his time, and I told you that he just wrote again the text that was collected by Abu Bakr, and the text that was collected by Abu Bakr was taken from the quranic text that was written when prophet Muhammad Pbuh used to read it, so no alterations were done. You claimed that there is an error in the holy Quran because it states that some people consider virgin Mary God, and I explained to you that according to thhe arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if the catholics worship virgin Mary - even if they don't say she is God - this means that they took her as a god according to the arabic language. Moreover, I've been able to show you some quotations from the Catholics which shows that some of them consider virgin Mary to be equal to God. So Could you please, tell me which of your posts exactly have I not been able to gainsay ? Could you also answer my posts ? You didn't answer me ..... How could Jesus Pbuh be God while he himself used to say that the Father is his God? How could Jesus be God while he himself said that the Father is the only God? How could he be God if he used to pray to God? How could he be God if he didn't know when Judgement day is? If you agree that the Bible is a man-made book that contains errors and spurious parts .... How do you trust it to take your faith from it? For example, how do you know that Jesus's resurrection story is not just a fake? Maybe he was not crucified and someone else was crucified as we muslims believe and as stated by some of the gnostic gospels, maybe he just died on the cross and the whole resurrection story is just a fake. How do you trust a book containing errors and spurious parts to be the source of your faith? What about the false prophecies in the Bible and the true prophecies in the Quran and Hadiths? I gave you examples for such prophecies.

Okay, please do speak to the moderators about us Christians being able to post directly. There is another Christian on the forum who has posted over 500 posts and she cannot post directly either. Is that fair? This tells me something about the fruit of Islam and how things would be under Sharia. Well, enough of that I started a thread on it; so, let me address your points. I am like you in the sense I am not trying to be evasive either.

You asked some questions that I will attempt to answer. The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign not to show the power of God, because every birth shows the power of God's creation; so, your response is lame. I didn't say the virgin birth proved Jesus divinity; I said it proves He was born without sin and remained so. I told you that Islam borrowed the virgin birth story from the NT Bible, but rejects the reason the NT Bible gives for His virgin birth.

The virgin birth was putting flesh and blood on God's word and in that sense God is with us (Jn. 1). God showed us that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory, because of God's perfect justice, we must die, but because of God's goodness, love and mercy, He provided a way for us to escape the judgment of God by accepting the work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus satisfied the penalty for our sin and justice was served.

That doesn't mean that we can kill and do evil works; it means Jesus is in us and God creates in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It means we are saved from past, present and further sin and we know that we'll be with God. We are free to choose but not free from the consequences of our choices. It means we have to meet God on His terms to be saved. If we are truly born again in Christ, we have been saved by God's grace through faith, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer for wrong doing. It is not by works we are saved, otherwise, man gets the credit and not God. God is not mocked a man will received according to his works. We reap what we sow, but when we have faith operational in our lives, God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that is why we know our eternal destiny. We might still sin but it has been paid for; now, we just have to deal with the consequences of our poor choices here and now.

Muslims don't know their eternal destiny for a reason. That fact alone guarantees you don't have salvation now. You must meet God on His terms to get this gift of God. Muslims don't have the security we Christians have, You will never know if you have done enough good deeds or prayed enough or followed Islam close enough for salvation. The truth is that no matter how close you try to follow Allah's and Muhammad's laws and commands in Islam, you will be able to do enough to save yourself. Jesus said it; "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...No one comes to the father God except through me" You are saying that these are a corruptions of God's word is the corruption. Again, the real corruption is believing this is a corruption, because it damns the soul for eternity, and this makes God very sad. I feel this sadness, because I am His and I have been brought for a price. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ. It is a monstrous teaching to say Jesus didn't die for our sin, because it damns the soul. It is written "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God".

Now, I cannot claim Uthman made alteration to the Quran; I am just saying you cannot proved the Quran has been perfectly preserved. As for Allah's question to Jesus "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count three with Allah as the third and Allah said, "they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three." Who does that or who did that? Not even the Catholics do this.

I didn't ask you about those who worship Mary. No one consider her God not even Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, so I know exactly what I am talking about. I have heard Catholics say she is the mother of God, because Jesus is the divine son of God, but they don't believe she is God or the mother of God the father. This is both Allah's and Muhammad's misconception of Christianity, and this is what you cannot gainsay although you try.
I am, therefore, seeing Islam as a reaction to its misconceptions of Christianity, and it started with Allah and his slave messenger. So, I see the god of Islam and the Quran to not be the same God of the Bible and Jesus. Jesus is the only truth. Allah never mentioned the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity; therefore, this blaring discrepancy that you either cannot see or don't want to see, but I see it clear as crystal.

Peace be unto you thank you for your response. Let me know what else you would like for me to address.

[3abd Arahman]

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Okay, please do speak to the moderators about us Christians being able to post directly. There is another Christian on the forum who has posted over 500 posts and she cannot post directly either. Is that fair?

Sure, I will speak to them.

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This tells me something about the fruit of Islam and how things would be under Sharia.

Well, I told you before that these are the rules of the forum that apply for both muslims and christians. If you want to keep on saying that this shows that this shows how things would be under Sharia, it's up to you but we are sure that what you are saying is completely wrong and we will not change the rules of the forum.

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The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign not to show the power of God, because every birth shows the power of God's creation; so, your response is lame.

And then if I say that you are kidding, you will tell me that I am trying to be evasive. Ok, I won't say that you are kidding, but I'm really sorry to say that your claim here is ridiculous.
You are claiming that the virgin birth is not a sign of the power of God because every birth shows the power of God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely, every birth shows the power of God, however the virgin birth specifically shows that God can break the physical and biological rules and can do whatever he wants to do. According to biology, man must have a father and a mother, God broke this rule and created Jesus from a female only, so this is a miracle that shows the power of God.

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I didn't say the virgin birth proved Jesus divinity

I totally agree with you that the virgin birth can't be a proof that Jesus Pbuh is God

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I said it proves He was born without sin and remained so.

Well, you just think that everyone is born with sin and that he inherits the sin from his father not his mother.
In Islam, we don't believe that we are born with sin because Adam Pbuh sinned.
In Islam, no one inherits the sin of the other, you are only responsible for yourself, we don't believe that because Adam Pbuh sinned, we have all inherited this sin and because we have inherited this sin, we all must go to hell and so God had to sacrifice his son to save us from the punishment of the sin we have inherited from Adam Pbuh.
In Islam, God is fair, he won't punish me for the sin of my father and he won't punish my father for my sin. No one inherits the sin of the other and man is only responsible for his own sins.
Do you think that it is fair if God makes you inherit sin ? Why should you inherit it ? I believe that God is completely fair and I don't think this is fair.
It is worth to mention that the Bible states that no one is responsible for the sin of his father.
Read :
So your concept of the inherited sin is not fair, not logic and even contradicts the Bible.
Now, forget all what I said and let's suppose that we inherit sin.
I don't understand why are you dealing with sin as if it is a gene that could only be inherited from the father? Why do you think that sin can't be inherited from mother?
If virgin Mary was born with sin according to your faith, why didn't Jesus Pbuh inherit sin from her?
Actually, I think that what you are saying is completely unlogic, you just think that we are born with sin and that the sin is inherited only from the father not the mother !!!!!!!!!
You also think that because we wereborn with sin, God had to kill his son to forgive us for the sin that we are born with !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if we are born with sin, God can just forgive us for our sins without anything, Why should God kill his son to forgive us ????????
Very strange !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have a servant and he makes a mistake, don't you think that people will consider you mad if you kill your son to forgive your servant ??
Do you think that God can't forgive us without killing his son ?

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I told you that Islam borrowed the virgin birth story from the NT Bible, but rejects the reason the NT Bible gives for His virgin birth.

As mentioned above, the reasons you are giving for the virgin birth are not logic. This is why, we believe that the reason for the virgin birth is that it shows the power and glory of God.

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The virgin birth was putting flesh and blood on God's word and in that sense God is with us (Jn. 1).

As mentioned before several times, the concepts in John 1 are just plagarized from Philo, and you have completely neglected this point and didn't address it and you are just again speaking about John 1.

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God showed us that we have all sinned and come short of God's glory, because of God's perfect justice, we must die, but because of God's goodness, love and mercy, He provided a way for us to escape the judgment of God by accepting the work of Jesus on the cross. Jesus satisfied the penalty for our sin and justice was served.

As mentioned above, God doesn't have to neither kill his son nor make people kill his son to save us. God can simply forgive us without any work on the cross.
What christians say is that Justice must be preseved, and there must be a punishment for the sin, but they are simply neglecting the other half of the fact, justice is to punish the one who sins, it's not to kill someone else or punish him. So I don't see that justice is preserved if Jesus dies for our sins, why should someone who has no sin die for sins of others?
The Bible orders you to forgive others, so if you forgive someone without punishing him, do you think that this is not fair? If it's not fair why does your Bible order you to do it? Why doesn't the Bible order you to punish yourself to forgive others to preserve justice?
SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUSTICE.

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That doesn't mean that we can kill and do evil works; it means Jesus is in us and God creates in us the will to do according to His good pleasure. It means we are saved from past, present and further sin and we know that we'll be with God. We are free to choose but not free from the consequences of our choices. It means we have to meet God on His terms to be saved. If we are truly born again in Christ, we have been saved by God's grace through faith, but that doesn't mean we won't suffer for wrong doing. It is not by works we are saved, otherwise, man gets the credit and not God. God is not mocked a man will received according to his works. We reap what we sow, but when we have faith operational in our lives, God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that is why we know our eternal destiny. We might still sin but it has been paid for; now, we just have to deal with the consequences of our poor choices here and now.

Well, Burning light I didn't get a clear answer to my question
If you kill someone or do very evil deeds, will you be punished by God for your sin and go to hell or you will just be forgiven and you won't be punished because according to your faith God made the jews and romans kill his son to forgive your sins ?
If according to your faith, you will never be punished for any sins because the son of God has been killed, then surely your religion is not a true religion because it encourages people to commit sins.
If according to your faith, you will go to hell if you kill someone or do very evil deeds, then there is no difference between christianity and islam and there was no reason for the death of Jesus on the cross according to the Bible.
Kindly give me a clear answer to the question : Will you go to hell if you kill someone or not ?

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Muslims don't know their eternal destiny for a reason. That fact alone guarantees you don't have salvation now. You must meet God on His terms to get this gift of God. Muslims don't have the security we Christians have, You will never know if you have done enough good deeds or prayed enough or followed Islam close enough for salvation. The truth is that no matter how close you try to follow Allah's and Muhammad's laws and commands in Islam, you will be able to do enough to save yourself.

Well, what you are saying is completely wrong.
As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)

( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97

This is the guarantee in Islam :

(إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)

النساء 31

Sahih International
(If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31

(وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)

الأنفال 31

Sahih International
(But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31

So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
If you do this you are secure
If you don't do it, it's your fault
But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong

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It is a monstrous teaching to say Jesus didn't die for our sin, because it damns the soul. It is written "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are saved it is the power of God".

This is your opinion, but according to us, the teaching that God was slapped by the jews and romans, the teaching that the romans were able to spit on God and nail him to the cross and kill him is a monstrous teaching.

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Now, I cannot claim Uthman made alteration to the Quran; I am just saying you cannot proved the Quran has been perfectly preserved.

As mentioned before, we are sure that the Quran has been perfectly preserved because :
1- The holy Quran has been transmitted orally from the Prophet Pbuh to his companions to those who came after his companions to those who came after them to people who are still living till now.
2- Uthman has been copying the text that was collected by Abu Bakr which was taken from the quranic text written while prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.

Although I am able to prove that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved, let's suppose I'm not able to prove that it is perfectly preserved, what about the Bible? You admit that it contains errors and spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?
You can't prove that the quranic text was altered, all what you are trying to say is that I can't prove that the quranic text has been perfectly preserved.
On the other hand, we are both sure that the biblical text was not perfectly preserved and that it contains spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?

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I didn't ask you about those who worship Mary. No one consider her God not even Catholics. I was born and raised Catholic, so I know exactly what I am talking about. I have heard Catholics say she is the mother of God, because Jesus is the divine son of God, but they don't believe she is God or the mother of God the father. This is both Allah's and Muhammad's misconception of Christianity, and this is what you cannot gainsay although you try.

As mentioned before, according to the arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if some people worship Mary, then they take her as a god even if they don't say directly that she is God. The catholics worship Mary so this means they take her a god.
As you can see, that I've been using the expression ( As mentioned before) several times because you argue about things that I have answered before without addressing my answer.
As you can see also, your point is completely gainsaid but you just don't want to admit this.
Catholics say that they don't consider virgin Mary to be God, but if you read their books you will find that some of their bishops considered Mary divine.
Let me paste what I said before :

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In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
Read this :
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm

Here are some quotes from this link


[pg. 416]
Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency.Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..


[pg. 419]
Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
[pg. 421]
Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...


[pg. 16]
27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.

28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.


Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :

And as usual, you just didn't bother any of these quotes or the youtube

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"Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me" I count three with Allah as the third and Allah said, "they do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three." Who does that or who did that? Not even the Catholics do this.

Surely you count Allah as the third of a three
Allah is God, Allah is the translation for the word (God) in the arabic versions of the Bible, and as mentioned before the aramaic word used by Jesus Pbuh for God sounds very close to Allah
So Allah is God, whom you call the Father
You claim that the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are 3 persons but one God
So you count God the father as one from 3 persons in the Godhead, or literally third of a three
Since Allah is God the father
Then you count Allah as third of a three
Hope you understand the point now

[Burninglight]

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Sure, I will speak to them.

Thank you for that

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Well, I told you before that these are the rules of the forum that apply for both muslims and christians. If you want to keep on saying that this shows that this shows how things would be under Sharia, it's up to you but we are sure that what you are saying is completely wrong and we will not change the rules of the forum.

Some Christians have posted over 500 times and still cannot post directly; so, if there is discrimination, you answer to God. Please show me the forum rules to back up what you say. If you cannot, I rest my case.

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And then if I say that you are kidding, you will tell me that I am trying to be evasive. Ok, I won't say that you are kidding, but I'm really sorry to say that your claim here is ridiculous.
You are claiming that the virgin birth is not a sign of the power of God because every birth shows the power of God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely, every birth shows the power of God, however the virgin birth specifically shows that God can break the physical and biological rules and can do whatever he wants to do. According to biology, man must have a father and a mother, God broke this rule and created Jesus from a female only, so this is a miracle that shows the power of God.

No, I didn't say it doesn't show the power of God; I said it is not the reason for His virgin birth. If you believe this imperfectly borrowed story from the NT Bible was just to show the power of God, you missed the point of your eternal salvation.

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I totally agree with you that the virgin birth can't be a proof that Jesus Pbuh is God

It doesn't disprove it either.

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Well, you just think that everyone is born with sin and that he inherits the sin from his father not his mother.
In Islam, we don't believe that we are born with sin because Adam Pbuh sinned.
In Islam, no one inherits the sin of the other, you are only responsible for yourself, we don't believe that because Adam Pbuh sinned, we have all inherited this sin and because we have inherited this sin, we all must go to hell and so God had to sacrifice his son to save us from the punishment of the sin we have inherited from Adam Pbuh.
In Islam, God is fair, he won't punish me for the sin of my father and he won't punish my father for my sin. No one inherits the sin of the other and man is only responsible for his own sins.
Do you think that it is fair if God makes you inherit sin ? Why should you inherit it ? I believe that God is completely fair and I don't think this is fair.
It is worth to mention that the Bible states that no one is responsible for the sin of his father.
Read :
So your concept of the inherited sin is not fair, not logic and even contradicts the Bible.
Now, forget all what I said and let's suppose that we inherit sin.
I don't understand why are you dealing with sin as if it is a gene that could only be inherited from the father? Why do you think that sin can't be inherited from mother?
If virgin Mary was born with sin according to your faith, why didn't Jesus Pbuh inherit sin from her?
Actually, I think that what you are saying is completely unlogic, you just think that we are born with sin and that the sin is inherited only from the father not the mother !!!!!!!!!
You also think that because we wereborn with sin, God had to kill his son to forgive us for the sin that we are born with !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if we are born with sin, God can just forgive us for our sins without anything, Why should God kill his son to forgive us ????????
Very strange !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you have a servant and he makes a mistake, don't you think that people will consider you mad if you kill your son to forgive your servant ??
Do you think that God can't forgive us without killing his son ?

"David said surely I was sinful at birth.... in sin did my mother conceive me"
I never said we inherit sin. I said we inherit a sinful nature. The sin we commit belongs to us not Adam. Jesus came to set us free from being slaves to sin otherwise there is no freedom. "Whom the son sets free is free indeed."

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As mentioned above, the reasons you are giving for the virgin birth are not logic. This is why, we believe that the reason for the virgin birth is that it shows the power and glory of God.

It is not the reason I give. It is the reason the Scripture gives.

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As mentioned before several times, the concepts in John 1 are just plagarized from Philo, and you have completely neglected this point and didn't address it and you are just again speaking about John 1.

You mean it was plagiarized like the virgin birth story was from the NT Bible? Just because Islam's messenger couldn't read and write doesn't mean he wasn't exposed to oral tradition regarding the gospel.

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As mentioned above, God doesn't have to neither kill his son nor make people kill his son to save us. God can simply forgive us without any work on the cross.
What christians say is that Justice must be preseved, and there must be a punishment for the sin, but they are simply neglecting the other half of the fact, justice is to punish the one who sins, it's not to kill someone else or punish him. So I don't see that justice is preserved if Jesus dies for our sins, why should someone who has no sin die for sins of others?
The Bible orders you to forgive others, so if you forgive someone without punishing him, do you think that this is not fair? If it's not fair why does your Bible order you to do it? Why doesn't the Bible order you to punish yourself to forgive others to preserve justice?
SIMPLY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUSTICE.

So, you are going to tell God what justice is or is not. God sets the terms and if we want the gift of salvation, we must meet God on his terms not ours. God's ways are not our ways.

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Well, Burning light I didn't get a clear answer to my question
If you kill someone or do very evil deeds, will you be punished by God for your sin and go to hell or you will just be forgiven and you won't be punished because according to your faith God made the jews and romans kill his son to forgive your sins ?
If according to your faith, you will never be punished for any sins because the son of God has been killed, then surely your religion is not a true religion because it encourages people to commit sins.
If according to your faith, you will go to hell if you kill someone or do very evil deeds, then there is no difference between christianity and islam and there was no reason for the death of Jesus on the cross according to the Bible.
Kindly give me a clear answer to the question : Will you go to hell if you kill someone or not ?

You are not understanding Christianity or the power of God. The soul that sins dies. It is written: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God the justice for sin is death. Because of God's perfect justice you must die for your sin. You cannot do good and be forgiven for your evil deeds. If a criminal murders someone in a robbery and then does good deeds afterward, does he get off the hook for his murder? The law says he must be punished. He cannot be forgiven as if he had never committed the evil deed, and he must die.

Jesus is God's gift to us. For God so loved the world that He gave us Jesus that whoever believes on Him should be saved. Jesus satisfied the perfect justice of God with His death on the cross. He died the death we deserved. We cannot satisfy God's justice with good deeds. The monstrous deception is to believe that we could be saved by good deeds and God's justice will be satisfied. We have to meet God on His terms not ours. His terms are to believe in His son and He even said if in an audible voice documented in the Bible: "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He...no comes to the father (God) except through Me" Who has deceived you to think you can get to paradise any other way?

[QUOTE=3abd Arahman;598345]
Well, what you are saying is completely wrong.
As mentioned before this is the guarantee in Islam :
من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون) النحل 97)

( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97

This is the guarantee in Islam :

(إن تجتنبوا كبائر ما تنهون عنه نكفر عنكم سيئاتكم وندخلكم مدخلا كريما)

النساء 31

Sahih International
(If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].) 4:31

(وما كان الله ليعذبهم وأنت فيهم وما كان الله معذبهم وهم يستغفرون)

الأنفال 31

Sahih International
(But Allah would not punish them while you, [O Muhammad], are among them, and Allah would not punish them while they seek forgiveness.) 8:31

So these are the guarantees in Islam : Do righteousness, avoid major sins, seek God's forgiveness
If you do this you are secure
If you don't do it, it's your fault
But Islam will never make you feel secure enough to go and kill people and do major sins
If this is the case in christianity, then you are just proving that your religion is wrong

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This is your opinion, but according to us, the teaching that God was slapped by the jews and romans, the teaching that the romans were able to spit on God and nail him to the cross and kill him is a monstrous teaching.

You are missing the point. You have no guarantees of paradise, and you know it. First of all, good deeds cannot save you, and God doesn't just forgive you unless you meet Him on His terms. Not only good deeds or works cannot save you, even if the could which they cannot, you would never know if you did enough to be pleasing to God. So guarantees you have none in Islam. I am not a Muslim, and I know this; you are Muslim, and you don't know? That is what is ridiculous, and this unequivocally proves to me you are living in denial or deception or both

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As mentioned before, we are sure that the Quran has been perfectly preserved because :
1- The holy Quran has been transmitted orally from the Prophet Pbuh to his companions to those who came after his companions to those who came after them to people who are still living till now.
2- Uthman has been copying the text that was collected by Abu Bakr which was taken from the quranic text written while prophet Muhammad Pbuh was alive.

Although I am able to prove that the holy Quran has been 100% preserved, let's suppose I'm not able to prove that it is perfectly preserved, what about the Bible? You admit that it contains errors and spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?
You can't prove that the quranic text was altered, all what you are trying to say is that I can't prove that the quranic text has been perfectly preserved.
On the other hand, we are both sure that the biblical text was not perfectly preserved and that it contains spurious parts.
Can't you see the difference?

You cannot prove it has been perfectly preserved was my only point. And you know it. Using the Bible cannot prove anything about the Qurans perseveration. You are obviously using it as a red herring.

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As mentioned before, according to the arabic language a god is anything or any person that is worshipped, so if some people worship Mary, then they take her as a god even if they don't say directly that she is God. The catholics worship Mary so this means they take her a god.
As you can see, that I've been using the expression ( As mentioned before) several times because you argue about things that I have answered before without addressing my answer.
As you can see also, your point is completely gainsaid but you just don't want to admit this.
Catholics say that they don't consider virgin Mary to be God, but if you read their books you will find that some of their bishops considered Mary divine.
Let me paste what I said before :

And as usual, you just didn't bother any of these quotes or the youtube

The video wouldn't come up for me. My friend it is possible for people to worship someone and not consider them a god; Isn't that what Muslims do with Islam's prophet? I know of no one who took Mary for God. If Allah meant worshipped he should have said that. If Mary were considered God, Allah would have had to say "Say not four" instead of three, because the Holy Spirit is the third person of God's tri unity. Do you see the blatant discrepancy? So, Islam is in part a religion that is reacting to its misconceptions of Christianity.

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Surely you count Allah as the third of a three
Allah is God, Allah is the translation for the word (God) in the arabic versions of the Bible, and as mentioned before the aramaic word used by Jesus Pbuh for God sounds very close to Allah
So Allah is God, whom you call the Father
You claim that the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are 3 persons but one God
So you count God the father as one from 3 persons in the Godhead, or literally third of a three
Since Allah is God the father
Then you count Allah as third of a three
Hope you understand the point now

No, Allah didn't say a third like you slice candy in thirds. He was clear, and any one can logically infer what was truthfully meant. "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" that makes Allah the third person in his question and later Allah confirms by saying "They do disbelieve who call Allah the third of three" He didn't say a third which is not what Christianity teaches anyway. You can live with what I consider a major discrepancy but I couldn't. You, like other Muslims, try to use semantics to get out of this, but knowledgeable Christians know you are just grasping a straws. I hope you know more about medicine than Spiritual matters and the Scriptures or I wouldn't want you for my doctor.

Peace be unto you and may you come to the knowledge of truth

[Burninglight]

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73)

The order he said is as clear as crystal 1. son, 2. mother, 3. father/Allah
Look carefully, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" 1, 2 & the third of 3. I know you can see this so being obtuse or using semantics is lame and cannot get you out of it or make the verse work the way you want to believe.

Allah said the third not a third of three. Besides, if someone wanted to say a third of the whole, there is not a need to say a third of three. Just saying a third is sufficient to know that a third is one third of three parts, but clearly he didn't say a third ; he said the third. Semantics doesn't work friend, nice try. So you could've convince me and no cigar for you. Again, Catholicism and Biblical Christianity does not believe God is a third. So who was Allah referring to. No one believes in the inferred trinity described by Islam's god or messenger. We all believe God is one. Jesus is not a third of God; He is the word of God, and God is the Holy Spirit!

No one can explain God's essences or how He can make His word and Holiness persons which are not thirds, but fully God. It is other earthly or worldly. God cannot be explained by finite beings such as ourselves or incorrect math formulas such as 1+1+1=1. Muslims have no good reason to reject God's tri unity. Just like you accept Allah is one when he say we have sent down the Torah as the royal we, we accept God saying let us make man in our image and likeness as the royal us. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit and yet I am one not three. I cannot make my word a person or my spirit one, but God is not limited. Man is limited and limited in understanding. You have no reason to reject perfect monotheism and the perfect unity of God expressed in His Son (The Word) and Spirit. The Jews and Christians were saying God is and was one way before Islam's prophet was born. It is an imperfectly borrowed concept, IMHO, just as is the virgin birth of Jesus which came from the NT Bible first!

Peace unto you

[Burninglight]

I did address all your points. What is missing that I didn't address? I even followed the link you gave and responded in a different way what I had already responded to. You seem to blow off all I say as emotion, but that is not very convincing in a debate or discussion. Please tell me straight out how many times did you have to post before you could post directly?

[3abd Arahman]

Well, usually the forum is closed during the month of Ramadan, so probably it will be closed very soon. So I will answer you and we can continue after the end of Ramadan.