Embryology in the holy Quran

[3abd Arahman]

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But anyone can borrow a story from somewhere else and add details to it that may not be true. The point is the story was found in the NT Bible first; again, there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting very strongly that he did borrow it from the NT Bible since it was Matthew that states Jesus' virgin birth was a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14. Anyone can argue that the prophecy given in Isaiah 7: 14 had already been fulfilled 700 years+ before Jesus was born. I would say this locks in my point that you have failed to address in anyway shape or form. IMHO, you have been pawned. Here is the OT verse that had already been fulfilled before Jesus birth: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Matthew said Jesus is the fulfillment of this verse, but it had already been fulfilled in the time of king Ahaz. One can argue that Muhammad borrowed a discrepancy from the Bible. can you prove otherwise? I don't think you can; in fact, I know you can't! But you can try.

What do you want to tell me by this? Do you want to tell me that Matthew was just trying to find any sentence in the OT and consider it a prophecy about Jesus Pbuh? Yes, I know this and I surely agree with you.
Do you want to tell me that Matthew was not inspired by God while writing his gospel and that he was doing errors while writing it ? I agree with you.
Do you want to tell me that Matthew's gospel is a man-made book like many other books in the Bible? I agree.

The point is that the virgin birth of Jesus Pbuh is a true story. Luke said in the beginning of his gospel that he has been making effort to know the true things about the story of the Christ to write them to Theophilus. One of the things that he's been able to know is the virgin birth story, because it is a true story. The same story has been told to us by God in the holy Quran.

Islam, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and the holy Quran have nothing to do with the prophecy in Isaiah which occured at the time of king Ahaz and which the writer of Matthew's gospel claimed that it is a prophecy about the Christ.

Anyway, if you insist that just because the story of virgin birth is mentioned in the gospel, this means that prophet Muhammad Pbuh must have taken it from the Bible, which I see is a completely ridiculous and wrong conclusion, but if you insist on this, then what about the virgin birth stories before christianity?
Read about them here
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Virgin_...ther_religions
They are common in many other religions, so according to your way of thinking, you must also believe that the story of virgin birth in Christianity has just been taken from other religions too.

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Now, your point of Adam having no parents is ridiculous. It had to be that way to start the human race, but that wasn't the case for Jesus; besides, the Scriptures say that God was Adam's father. Every prophet if you can call Adam one has a father, but not everyone had a mother. Jesus' father was and is God. That doesn't mean God sired Jesus; It means that Jesus proceeded from the father as His word incarnate. You have been pawned again friend.

The concept that I want you to understand is that God can create a normal man without a father or a mother (Adam) and can create a normal human being from a male without a female (Eve) and can create a normal man from a female without a male (Jesus Pbuh)

Now let me ask you a yes/no question : Can God create a normal man from a female without a male? Can God make a virgin give birth to a normal human being who is neither divine nor the son of God ?

If you say yes, then you have no point in arguing that Jesus Pbuh was divine because he was born from a virgin.
If you say no, then you are claiming that God is not powerful enough to create a normal baby from a virgin without a male.
Choose the answer.

Anyway, it's worth to mention that there is a mode of reproduction called parthengenesis, in which reproduction is from a female without a male
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis
It's common in animals and it doesn't show that these animals are divine of course, so you have no point in your argument at all.

[Burninglight]

No, I am not saying Matthew is a liar. I am saying he saw the virgin birth story concerning Jesus first; so he had to have been inspired. You accept Luke but not Matthew. Look I have to go to work. I'll get back to this.
Blessings and Peace

[pandora]

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Well, first of all regarding the similarity betwwen the embryology in the holy Quran and the greek embryology, I'll soon be discussing with you the details of the embryology of the Quran and challenging you to show me the similarities between it and the grrek embryology. I would like to mention that the holy Quran didn't say that man is created from a blood clot, the word ( Alaqa) which is the second stage according to the Quranic embryology has other meanings beside blood clot, it means a clinged or attached thing or something that's hanging from another thing, also it means a leech. However, I would like first to clear the issue of the virgin birth story

Salaam, please do not concern yourself with this matter on my behalf. I only mentioned it in passing. I am not overly concerned with scientific accounts, miraculous or otherwise in the Quran. I personally don't see what they bring to enlightenment in regards to ones spirituality or bringing one closer to God.

Time would be better spent explaining what the Quran has brought that is new in revelation to mankind... Because for a non Muslim it seems like we have the Jewish scriptures, the Gospel, the Gnostics along side ancient folk tales and scientific facts often know already. I am struggling to find what the new updated message is when it comes to ones redemption and making oneself right with God.

maybe someone could explain this on another thread rather than go of on a tangent. :)

Peace to you.

[Burninglight]

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What do you want to tell me by this? Do you want to tell me that Matthew was just trying to find any sentence in the OT and consider it a prophecy about Jesus Pbuh? Yes, I know this and I surely agree with you.
Do you want to tell me that Matthew was not inspired by God while writing his gospel and that he was doing errors while writing it ? I agree with you.
Do you want to tell me that Matthew's gospel is a man-made book like many other books in the Bible? I agree.

I am trying to tell you that the only place the virgin birth story of Jesus is found hundreds of years before Muhammad"s birth and the birth of his Quran is in the NT Bible. I am trying to say that what you think about Matthew is true of Muhammad and not the first book of the NT Bible.

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The point is that the virgin birth of Jesus Pbuh is a true story. Luke said in the beginning of his gospel that he has been making effort to know the true things about the story of the Christ to write them to Theophilus. One of the things that he's been able to know is the virgin birth story, because it is a true story. The same story has been told to us by God in the holy Quran.

I know that it is a true story but I didn't need Muhammad to tell me what was already in print before his time nor did I need him to tell me what the Jews and Christians already know about God being one. What did Muhammad bring new or that we Christians need; it certainly appears that he has been bringing to Christianity but taking from it and adding things to the story.
Since you like quoting Luke why don't you believe the reason for Jesus virgin birth that seems to be missing from the Quran. Muslims say Jesus only came for the Jews but look at this prophecy over His birth in Luke 2: for my eyes have seen your salvation 31. that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32. a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory to your people Israel.”

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Islam, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and the holy Quran have nothing to do with the prophecy in Isaiah which occured at the time of king Ahaz and which the writer of Matthew's gospel claimed that it is a prophecy about the Christ.

It doesn't matter whether he learned the story from Matthew or Luke the point is the story came from the NT Bible which Muslims consider corrupted. When someone is working on their Master's doing their thesis, and I are confronted with plagiarizing, because the idea and work in their paper was in print and published before they turned it in as their own work, will the school faculty accept that and let the student graduate? I think not. Yet you tell me I am ridiculous and look not to your own rationale.

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Anyway, if you insist that just because the story of virgin birth is mentioned in the gospel, this means that prophet Muhammad Pbuh must have taken it from the Bible, which I see is a completely ridiculous and wrong conclusion, but if you insist on this, then what about the virgin birth stories before christianity?
Read about them here

We are speaking about the virgin birth of Jesus and no one else. It appears you are grasping at straws bringing irrelevant information to the topic of our discussion. I see Muhammad's Quran as contrived. It states if you doubt the Quran produce a surah like it; well, had Muhammad documented a verse in the Quran like this "To the unbelievers we have made it appear that Isa was virgin born, but surely he was born out of wedlock; nevertheless, we made him a prophet to the adulterous house of Israel" he would have gotten a lot more mileage, because if Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, then his death and resurrection would be insignificant. His virgin birth made it so he didn't inherit a sinful nature from Adam. If there is No virgin birth, there is no Christianity, IMHO, Muhammad contrived a convoluted story where he states in his Quran that Allah made it appear that Jesus died and let someone substitute in Jesus place. Think of that, hmmm, instead, of Jesus being the one to die in our place someone died for Jesus. This is so messy; had Muhammad said no virgin birth and Matthew was a liar; he would have put a bigger hurting on Christianity; but instead, he borrowed from Christianity.

Islam borrowed from us is what I want you to say and admit it, but you give me the impression that you'll say anything no matter how ridiculous or untrue to get me to see Islam is true. That, however, wouldn't surprise me since your god does the same by making things not true appear to be true. No matter how you twist or turn this it is all deception, but you won't call a spade a spade will you? Please don't call this emotion only. truth can be spoken with emotion. I am an emotional guy when it comes to Jesus Christ and spiritual life and death.

Peace an Blessing to you

[3abd Arahman]

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Islam borrowed from us is what I want you to say and admit it, but you give me the impression that you'll say anything no matter how ridiculous or untrue to get me to see Islam is true. That, however, wouldn't surprise me since your god does the same by making things not true appear to be true.

Before we go any further in our discussion, we have to stop here.
You must understand that you are not allowed to speak about our God in this way. You are not at all allowed to say by any means whether directly or indirectly that our God does things that you consider ridiculous.
You are a respected guest but you have to speak very politely about God, prophet Muhammad Pbuh, the holy Quran and Islam even if you don't believe in them.
I expect thst you know this but I just wanted to remind you.
Hope this is ok with you.

[3abd Arahman]

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Now let me ask you a yes/no question : Can God create a normal man from a female without a male? Can God make a virgin give birth to a normal human being who is neither divine nor the son of God ?

If you say yes, then you have no point in arguing that Jesus Pbuh was divine because he was born from a virgin.
If you say no, then you are claiming that God is not powerful enough to create a normal baby from a virgin without a male.
Choose the answer.

Waiting for your answer to the previous question before we proceed.

[Burninglight]

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Waiting for your answer to the previous question before we proceed.

God does things for a reason. He wouldn't do it unless it was to indicate a special purpose, and that purposes it documented in the Bible my friend. Muhammad borrowed the act from the Bible but not the reason for the act. Where is the purpose shown in the Quran? Your question is like asking can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it. Think about it. You are asking a question that has really nothing to do with anything. Why would he go against the natural laws of biology and embryology? What was His purpose? Waiting for your answer sir.
Peace

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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I am not overly concerned with scientific accounts, miraculous or otherwise in the Quran.

May be our colleague is concerned only with his Bible 's superstitions !



Genesis 19 : 26

But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.