the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

[نصير الدين]

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That's not clear. Surely if Allah had doubts on such a scale then he would have chosen another prophet.

Allah never doubts or hesitates . He is all knowing all wise . Further more , even in this one , Quran answers you :

21:23 He is not questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

Your limited knowledge and personal opinions are not to be used to judge the message . It is none of anyone's concern why Allah would choose the best of his creatures for it .

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Besides the verse is giving an excuse why prophet Mohammed was illiterate.. It is not proof of the authenticity of his revelation. As many did doubt in his revelation and credentials as a prophet... Then I don't see what this verse is excusing or explaining.

First of all , I can simply reject your religion JUST because there are many who rejected it . That's no way of arguing . Secondly , seeing how it was impossible for him to have read the scriptures and how the possibility of him quoting someone else in only truth out of oceans of falsehood , in addition to every person through history failing to point these imaginary sources - except through imaginations and maybe delusions of course - is a clean 0% , I'd say it's safe to say that it's one of the many signs of his prophethood peace upon him .

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However, I do feel SOME muslims do, which has the unfortunate effect of giving the impression to non muslims who have not taken the time to study Islam.. That Islam does not promote knowledge.

And we're exposing their falsehood before anyone else .

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You enjoy inferring the same for the scriptures that others hold in the highest esteem from their Holy God. Why should you object when the same question is levelled at yourselves

I wasn't objecting just for objection . But from my point of view and according to my knowledge , it is impossible for such corruption to happen among the Islamic nation unnoticed , on the other hand , I'm not knowledgeable of how the Bible was narrated or copied , but since it's a matter of faith , I'll believe the method wasn't perfect until I acquire such knowledge . No intention of bringing a debate about it , unless you want to compare our method with yours . You'd need to do it with someone better than me though .

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Personally, it doesn't overly concern me, the revelation being transmitted perfectly is not proof that it's from YHWH.

Maybe , but the message being NOT transmitted perfectly means it's not from the almighty .

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I have sometimes cause to doubt we are actually talking about the same One True God. I have YHWH of the Bible who was worshipped by all the prophets and revealed in Jesus. You have Allah, maybe you can convince me we are actually talking of the same One True God.

I said it long ago : we don't worship the same God . Our belief about Allah is :

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 3 He neither begets nor is born, 4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

And I believe that it's as clear as day that this isn't whom you worship .

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Not sure what you mean here.

If you use this argument "They refused Islam and thus it's false" , you'd find the answer in the sign saying how rejected it but their inner selves were convinced .

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Again... Not sure what you mean. Obviously God calls people in different ways.. It has nothing to be with being first

Ask Burnlight who keeps talking how "Chirstianity came before Islam" .

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God in His wisdom and mercy gives me a saviour in Christ Jesus.

While we believe success to doing and being good is from Allah , we don't believe in the need of a saviour that is a creature . That's where we differ .

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You accept you are a sinner but may feel you can do something yourself in the hope you may mitigate any possible punishments. I feel this does not give God the highest importance in terms of holiness

False . That is not our belief in Islam .

[محمد سني 1989]

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So are you saying Allah ensured that prophet Mohammed remained illiterate so he wouldn't be accused of falsifying accounts ? Of what???? Reading the words it seems to say Mohammed did not read any scripture (so no possibility of plagiarism).. Nor did he write anything himself..by his own hand. Otherwise unbelievers? May doubt him or doubt the message? That's not clear. Surely if Allah had doubts on such a scale then he would have chosen another prophet. Besides the verse is giving an excuse why prophet Mohammed was illiterate.. It is not proof of the authenticity of his revelation. As many did doubt in his revelation and credentials as a prophet... Then I don't see what this verse is excusing or explaining.




Peace.

ًWith all do respect this was the only response I saw worthy to respond to:
First : your scriptures are considered corrupt by us so we do not believe in it entirely
Second : The arabian society were illiterate at the time of the prophet, There only method of transporting news or announcing anything was threw poetry and arabic speeches , these were most of the times how tribes annouced. comminicated, declared, and even sometimes competed with each other
Third : the verse was a response to the meccans who accused the prophet of writting these revelations and reading them from other scriptures , So the quran responded to such nonsense by stating the fact which they already knew that he was illeterate , so there was no way that he could have read other scriptures and wrote it down
Fourth : I don't think we can question god about what he should or should not have done. God could have chosen an egyptian as a prophet to Pharoh instead of a man from a nation of slaves at that time, God could just chosen David before Saul, God could have made the israelites enter the holy land under moses peace be upon him instead of Joshua peace be upon him
Fifth : We do not worship Jesus peace be upon him or the holy ghost they are both created by God . The fact that you believe in trinity makes you DIVERGENT FROM THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT , JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM AND THE QURAN

TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels

[pandora]

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I said it long ago : we don't worship the same God . Our belief about Allah is :

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 3 He neither begets nor is born, 4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

And I believe that it's as clear as day that this isn't whom you worship .

I was going to go through your post and thought to reply in my usual unworthy manner of response then read this... I need to think about what you have said here, because I have always told myself that Allah and YHWH were one and the same.. Just muslims referred to YHWH as Allah was a matter of linguistics. Now you say we do not share the ONE TRUE GOD.. And you worship a different God to myself.. I don't know what to say.. If you do not worship YHWH.. The God of the Abraham and all the Biblical prophets and Jesus.. Then I don't see we have anything at all to discuss for there can be no common ground between us. I seriously beg you to consider if Allah is NOT YHWH.. Then who are you praying to.

[QUOTE]While we believe success to doing and being good is from Allah , we don't believe in the need of a saviour that is a creature . That's where we differ .[\QUOTE]

We also do not believe we have a saviour that is a "creature". That's NOT what the Bible teaches. I see the main point we differ is your prophet...

Im sorry.. I am shaken by your claim. I need time to consider your words and hope I have misread them... Though they seem clear enough.

Peace to you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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I was going to go through your post and thought to reply in my usual unworthy manner of response then read this... I need to think about what you have said here, because I have always told myself that Allah and YHWH were one and the same.. Just muslims referred to YHWH as Allah was a matter of linguistics. Now you say we do not share the ONE TRUE GOD.. And you worship a different God to myself.. I don't know what to say.. If you do not worship YHWH.. The God of the Abraham and all the Biblical prophets and Jesus.. Then I don't see we have anything at all to discuss for there can be no common ground between us. I seriously beg you to consider if Allah is NOT YHWH.. Then who are you praying to.


Peace to you.

Pandora do not misunderstand brother نصير الدين Allah is an arabic translation from the syriac illah which is the syriac translation of elohim . Allah simply means god in arabic it is also used in the arabic bible . Inscriptions of Allah were found on re islamic christian tombs to refer to god, Source:
James Bellamy, ‘Two Pre-Islamic Arabic Inscriptions Revised: Jabal Ramm and Umm al-Jimal’, Journal of the American Oriental Society, 108/3 (1988)

Also there were jews and christians in pre islamic times who included the name allah in their names such as Abdullah ibn salam and Andullah ibn Soriyya two jewish rabbis in Medina before Islam

Syriac and ithopian texts in pre islamic times also include the name :
Rick Brown, Who was ‘Allah’ before Islam? Evidence that the term ‘Allah’ originated with Jewish and Christian Arabs (2007), page 8.

And many other examples the reason for this detailed explanation is that we have started to hear a lot of non Arab westener christians who say such things as in Allah is not God!!!! SO IT IS A MATTER OF LINGUISTIC

What brother نصير الدين meant was that your worship of trinity is not the same as worshipping god . You are worshipping Jesus peace be upon him as god BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS GOD THATS WHY WE HAVE DIFFERENT GODS IN THAT MEANING , JESUS IS NOT YAHWEH

PEACE

[pandora]

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BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS GOD THATS WHY WE HAVE DIFFERENT GODS IN THAT MEANING , JESUS IS NOT YAHWEH

There is no need to shout... With your use of upper case letters! Jesus is Jesus ... YHWH is YHWH.

Peace unto you.

[محمد سني 1989]

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There is no need to shout... With your use of upper case letters! Jesus is Jesus ... YHWH is YHWH.

Peace unto you.

The capitalized letters are not to shout but to indicate a conclusion or an important point

peace

[Burninglight]

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[SIZE=5]TAKE SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY , Why is it not cmentioned in the old testament and not CLEARLY mentioned in the gospels

Trinity is mentioned mostly by Muslims; the only reason we talk about the trinity is because you and other Muslims are fixated on it. It is not mentioned in the Bible as a term we are suppose to teach on, because the essence of God is past finding out for anyone.
Can you explain what the perfect oneness of God is. You cannot explain it anymore than we can God's tri unity. So why to you waste your time and ours on the topic of trinity when we believe God is one as well?

[محمد سني 1989]

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Trinity is mentioned mostly by Muslims; the only reason we talk about the trinity is because you and other Muslims are fixated on it. It is not mentioned in the Bible as a term we are suppose to teach on, because the essence of God is past finding out for anyone.
Can you explain what the perfect oneness of God is. You cannot explain it anymore than we can God's tri unity. So why to you waste your time and ours on the topic of trinity when we believe God is one as well?

Now you are trying to marginilize the most important principle in christianity , a principle that was actually the most important element and core belief out of the council of Nicea !!!!!


This was the subject of debate not just with muslims but also with jews and other old christian sects

[Burninglight]

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Now you are trying to marginilize the most important principle in christianity , a principle that was actually the most important element and core belief out of the council of Nicea !!!!!


This was the subject of debate not just with muslims but also with jews and other old christian sects

That is not the most important principal of Christianity. The death of Christ, His shed blood for our sin, and His resurrection from the dead are the most important principles along with salvation by God's grace through faith. This is the gift from God that we can only access by believing Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and the son of God who gave Himself for our redemption, and that there is no other way to receive eternal life, paradise or heaven. Without believing and accepting this gospel people will die in their sin unless they believe Jesus is He and that no one comes to God except through Him as Jesus Himself said!
As for the trinity, the Bible doesn't tell us that we should teach on it. God has personally shown me He is a trinity by bearing witness with my spirit, but that wasn't something I was told to teach or try to figure out with my own understanding. All Christians know is that in the beginning was the word who was with God and was God, Jn. 1. And we know that God is Spirit and He is Holy. The Holy Spirit is God. No Christian can explain how God's Word and Holiness could be one and yet distinct persons of God's tri-unity. It is a waste of time debating this. As I mentioned, you cannot explain God's oneness anymore than I can explain the trinity. The other point I tried to make is that Muslims bring up the trinity more than Christians to argue against Christianity, but this tragedy fails miserably. Basically, your write up on the trinity took us no where, and in my opinion, as a once JW that you were, you went from the fryer into the fire. Finally, your write up is puffed up head knowledge that profits you nothing spiritually or anyone else in the things of God. I tell you in love and truth the way God shows it to me.

Peace.

[Burninglight]

The part about the JW and write up was meant for 3abd Arahman's response on the trinity. I couldn't edit my post.