QuoteOriginally Posted by huria
Quran 2:79 “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.”.
Before I address your opening statement I would like if you please for you to explain to me what you take as the meaning of this Sura.
Is this your opinion, the opinion of all muslims or just particular sects of Islam? The text below from Wiki.. The link is there if you wish to take a look and offer alternative proof.QuoteWe do not need to, as the whole Quran was gathered in the life of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. We also know who collected it by their full names, unlike the bible authors by their first names only, you can’t get cheque cashed signed by first name only but you can link your salvation to it!!
We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger. (Hakim, Mustadrak)
Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ (Bukhari, Kitab Fada’ilu’l-Qur’an)
Due to the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in disjointed verses and chapters, a point came when it needed to be gathered into a coherent whole text. There are disagreements among both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars as to when the Qur'an was compiled. Some believe Muhammad compiled it before he died, while others believe it was collected by either Ali ibn Abu Talib or Abu Bakr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran
Good.. I am pleased to hear that!QuoteDo not worry, I will not get into that, I am sure you know there are many
QuoteWow at last, we got somewhere, so it is not actual word of God it is inspired word of God.
Now at which stage is it inspired and infallible?
The scribe stage
The translation stage
Then who decide what goes on in the bible
So it which stage the bible is inspired, and infallible free from errors and contradictions?
According to Christians themselves each stage contained errors, if you want examples I can give you, many.
Let’s say for the sake of argument each stage was free from errors and reached us perfect, no errors or contradictions.
Then we have the New Testament that raises loads of other questions
· The early Church Fathers. (they didn't consider New Testament as inspired scripture!)
· who are the gospels writers? We have first names but nobody is sure who are they? These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority.
· Who is John in particular? chapter 21 assumed by another author by that particular chapter at least
· Mark was written first in around 70ce , then 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke!! Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. If you plagiarise in exam, you are not considered credible but as a gospel writer, you will do just fine.
· Do you have any original manuscripts left??? None, apart from one fragment small with couple line in it !!! Just one out of thousands!
· “Of the approximately 5,000 Greek manuscripts of all or part of the New Testament that are known today, no two agree exactly in all particulars. Confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors and translators had to decide which variants deserve to be included in the text and which should be relegated to textual notes”QuoteThe Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible -Complete 4 Volume PAGE 594-595
And there are many more points, I can write without even pin pointing the many errors and contradictions.
The fact that Jesus never claimed divinity in all his sayings, the fact the only time the trinity is mentioned it is by a passage that was added later, fabricated passage.
Weather it be Gods word spoken to His Prophets by God Himself or Gods word brought through His Spirits inspiration it's one and the same. That you cannot see this is a slight cause for concern. We see it as the authoritative word of God and do not doubt Gods power to protect His word from all corruption.
If you don't believe we have no original manuscripts left, or should I say in existence during the 7th century, how do you know what was corrupted? If there is no original you have nothing to compare to, so making claims of changes is nothing more than idle speculation.
The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible ... Anywhere. I don't know where you got that information from.
We could address some of the contradictions to be found in the Quran, which I feel have a bigger implication when you claim that every word is from God.
Yes! and I will keep asking this until you give me the answer you said you had to these three... for me, very important points. In fact that is really all the proof I wish to see. So please stop throwing straw men into the mix.QuoteYou keep asking this but what you should really ask who made it divine? The early church fathers never thought so! And after all that stages of changing, sure the original message will be lost.
QuoteMay be you can help me understand what message the holy spirit is sending you to understand this!!Quote
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.-Ezekiel 23:20
Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine? isaiah 36:12
Prepare and eat this food as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread." Ezekiel 4:12
I probably could if I thought you were really that interested..... But I see you are just trying to be controversial. What you could do is look the verses up and see them in context.. They may make sense to you. I suggest Isaiah would be a good one to start. :) I always like reading the Book of Isaiah.. Very interesting prophet. I do not think he has a mention in the Quran or does he?
This is a shameful waste of my time! and I thought you were a better person than to stoop so low and introduce something that has nothing to do with the point in hand. You are talking of men, weak men and sinners. Are you so sure these types of men do not exists within Islam? Are all Muslim men righteous?QuoteChristians keep telling us they are guided by the holy spirit,, and we Muslims lack that, and we do not understand it. Explain to me how is it that those filled with holy spirit priests molest children, and it is not a case or two but many “ the church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950. Protestant Church Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year!! And those from people who are supposed to be filled with holy spirit!
I only mention the Quran because it does claim to confirm the Bible.. I don't wish to offend you so have no wish to discuss my feelings on the Quran with you. As I see it is OK for you to criticise, denigrate and abuse the Bible without censure it would not be ok for me to do the same with the Quran. Besides I would not wish to because I can respect the fact that it holds great importance to yourselves. May I just ask, and if it offends you don't have to answer.. Why are you so sure it was God speaking to Mohammed through Gabriel? How can you trust an Angel that brought a different message several hundred years earlier? I am guessing you would say you have faith that it is truth... Well.. I also have faith in Gods message as revealed in the Bible.QuoteAlthough the thread is about your book but you can’t help yourself but compare, and you clearly do not know about the history of the Quran, and how it is collected.
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction". Glorious Quran 4:82
The Quran preserved by two ways, the written preservation and the oral form. Unlike Christians we do not give if and buts answers if someone asked us if the Quran is the word of God, we believe every letter of it, direct revelation to the prophet from Allah by the angel Gabriel peace be upon him. It was written in the life of the prophet peace upon him, and he approved every verse his followers have written.
The main way of preservation is the oral form, the prophet encouraged it, and Allah made it easy for people to memories the Quran even if they do not speak Arabic which is one of the miracle aspects of the Quran.
Allah in his Infinite Wisdom has made the Quran easy to remember. As is said in this verse:
"And We have certainly made the Qur’an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?"(54:17)
and Allah also said that he will protect the Quran from corruption:
“It is We Who have sent down the remembrance (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it from corruption.” (15:9)
The Quran is in Arabic and that is part of the preservation of it, although there are translations but they are not considered Quran, they are just translations.
One of the ways in which the Quran has been guarded against corruption by Allah is by Him making it easy to remember. Thus, today (and in previous generations going back to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) there has been many millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. Therefore, if any new Quran is printed, and there is even a slight mistake in it, even a word or syllable, it will be known right away (and rectified) because the huffazs ('guardian, memorizer of Quran) are there to guard over it.
You can go anywhere in the world today & you can take a copy of the Quran & you can compare it with one with Qurans anywhere. And you can go back in history 300, 400, 500 years & you can compare those Qurans then with the Qurans that we have today & you will not find they are different, not by a word, not by a letter. and this is a fact.
Khalid Yasin says, if all the bibles copies and, all Quran copies were thrown in the ocean, only the Quran can be brought back because it is memorized in the heart and mind of many Muslims.
This is just condensed version of the preservation of the Quran.
I want to finish with something you believe Jesus said “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” John 5:39
“And when our verses are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he had not heard them, as if there was in his ears deafness. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.” Quran 31:7
I have to say I am a little disappointed with your replies so far... Some interesting points on your view of the Quran. But you did not address my questions. I was not asking much, just the answer to my 3 questions, which you sort of implied you could answer and even bring proof. It would be interesting if you clarified a bit on your opening statement, like what meaning you yourself take from it. I think it does have a baring on the topic in hand.
Peace
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