the Bible VS the holy Qura'n

[*اسلامي عزي*]

In the name of Allah



We know that the Prophet Yusuf (joseph) the hebrew patriarch and the son of the Prophet Jacob lived in the ancient Egypt during the reign of the Hyksos - the Middle Kingdom -

The story of the Prophet Yusuf is mentioned in both OT and the holy Qura'n .
to refer to Egypt 's ruler during the Hyksos's reign :

1 - the holy Qura'n used the term-----> king

And the king said, "Bring him to me." But when the messenger came to him, [Joseph] said, "Return to your master and ask him what is the case of the women who cut their hands. Indeed, my Lord is Knowing of their plan."

the holy Qura'n 12 : 50

Conversely the bible used the term -----> pharaoh

And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.

Genesis 41 : 14

NOTE :

During the reign of the Hyksos The ruler of Egypt takes the title of king.
The title of Pharaoh started being used for the king during the New kingdom !




https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/t...s/Pharaoh.html





http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pharaohs.htm


The question now :

the bible is wrong ????

[pandora]

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In the name of Allah



We know that the Prophet Yusuf (joseph) the hebrew patriarch and the son of the Prophet Jacob lived in the ancient Egypt during the reign of the Hyksos - the Middle Kingdom -

The story of the Prophet Yusuf is mentioned in both OT and the holy Qura'n .
to refer to Egypt 's ruler during the Hyksos's reign :

1 - the holy Qura'n used the term-----> king

And the king said, "Bring him to me." But when the messenger came to him, [Joseph] said, "Return to your master and ask him what is the case of the women who cut their hands. Indeed, my Lord is Knowing of their plan."

the holy Qura'n 12 : 50

Conversely the bible used the term -----> pharaoh

And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it.

Genesis 41 : 14

NOTE :

During the reign of the Hyksos The ruler of Egypt takes the title of king.
The title of Pharaoh started being used for the king during the New kingdom !




https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/t...s/Pharaoh.html





http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pharaohs.htm


The question now :

the bible is wrong ????

No.. The Bible is not wrong. :) The Bible uses the distinctly Egyptian term Pharaoh to refer to the King of Egypt. The word Pharaoh... As you can see from the clip from the article you use refers to "Great House" orginally refered to the government...or even the royal palace. Since the Pharaoh was the absolute ruler of Egypt, the government and king were one and the same. Where's your problem??? Pharaoh is also used in the Quran is it not? There's the Pharaohs wife said to be among the best of women.. Is this not so? Although why the pharaohs wife should be considered this way I do not know. Why is she not called Queen in the Quran?

Honestly, you are splitting hairs here..

Peace.

[Burninglight]

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The question now :

the bible is wrong ????

Pharaoh VS Nesu? How does this effect the central message of the gospel that Christians follow?

[pandora]

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Pharaoh VS Nesu? How does this effect the central message of the gospel that Christians follow?

It doesn't.. But grasping at straws is sometimes the the only way left to go. I think it is difficult for muslims to see the Bible how we see it. They look at the Bible and apply the same criteria they would use for measuring the Quran. We know that cannot work on any meaningful level and so lends itself to misunderstandings.

Blessings to you BL.

[*اسلامي عزي*]

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The Bible uses the distinctly Egyptian term Pharaoh to refer to the King of Egypt. The word Pharaoh... As you can see from the clip from the article you use refers to "Great House" orginally refered to the government...or even the royal palace. Since the Pharaoh was the absolute ruler of Egypt, the government and king were one and the same. Where's your problem???

as i mentioned the Hyksos who lived during the MK (the Middle Kingdom) does not use the term pharaoh as a title to refer to the Egyptian ruler .
here is the problelm ..!



please re-read carefully this :

The title of Pharaoh started being used for the king during the New Kingdom, specifically during the middle of the eighteenth dynasty.

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Pharaoh is also used in the Quran

yes .

And Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses and let him call upon his Lord.
Indeed, I fear that he will change your religion or that he will
cause corruption in the land."

the holy Qura'n 40 : 26

as you know the EXODUS take place in the NK (the New Kingdom)

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The title of Pharaoh started being used for the king during the New Kingdom, specifically during the middle of the eighteenth dynasty.

where is the problem ?????

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Why is she not called Queen in the Quran?

the term "the Pharaoh 's wife" will automatically refer to the Queen .
the holy Qura'n does not care to details because he is not a book of history or geography !
maybe you will ask me why the holy Qura'n does not mention the shoe size of the pharaho's wife !!!!???

.


PEACE

[pandora]

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as i mentioned the Hyksos who lived during the MK (the Middle Kingdom) does not use the term pharaoh as a title to refer to the Egyptian ruler .
here is the problelm ..!



please re-read carefully this :

The title of Pharaoh started being used for the king during the New Kingdom, specifically during the middle of the eighteenth dynasty.

And.. I stated it is not a problem for Christians, reason being as our salvation does not depend on the date of the exodus.

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yes .

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And Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses and let him call upon his Lord.
Indeed, I fear that he will change your religion or that he will
cause corruption in the land."

the holy Qura'n 40 : 26

as you know the EXODUS take place in the NK (the New Kingdom)

Here is a link which has some good information on the dating of the exodus. Personally, I would go with the Bible date... But either way a few hundred years either way won't make any difference to mankind's redemption.. God acts outside our time frame.

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/date-of-the-exodus/
[/QUOTE]


the term "the Pharaoh 's wife" will automatically refer to the Queen .
the holy Qura'n does not care to details because he is not a book of history or geography !
maybe you will ask me why the holy Qura'n does not mention the shoe size of the pharaho's wife !!!!???

PEACE[/QUOTE]

So it's ok to make assumptions in regards to the Quran but not make similar assumptions with the Bible? Hmmm... I see. You are one of the few muslims I have heard say the Quran is not a book of history or geography... Most muslims constantly lay claims to historical and geographical facts as pointing to further proof of its divine nature. It's actually refreshing to hear a Muslim imply it's not that important. Although I disagree to some extent in regards to the importance of detail...it's the detail that give the clues as to the bigger picture.. The bigger and clearer the picture the greater degree of accuracy can be determined from proof. The Bible has a wealth of both historical and geographical proof that can be confirmed as accurate by today's archeological discoveries. This is of interest to me as a Christian but probably not so to yourself.. :)

In regards to the Pharaohs wife, Queen or whatever you would like to call her, and her footwear. She favoured sandals and her feet were size 36... That's European sizing.. ...... ...... That's a joke.. I don't really know what size shoes she had, although I'm sure someone could make a fairly accurate estimate by using archeological evidence to hand.

Peace.

[Burninglight]

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It doesn't.. But grasping at straws is sometimes the the only way left to go. I think it is difficult for muslims to see the Bible how we see it. They look at the Bible and apply the same criteria they would use for measuring the Quran. We know that cannot work on any meaningful level and so lends itself to misunderstandings.

Blessings to you BL.

It doesn't and you are correct. The Bible cannot be compared to the way one sees the Quran. If you judge it based on the way the Quran was supposedly received the Bible would fail every time, but not even the Quran keeps up with the way it was supposed to have been received and Muslims are constantly using semantics, conjecture and speculation along with cutting down previous Scripture to support it.
Blessings to you Pandora

[نصير الدين]

You're terribly missing the point hear honestly .

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You are one of the few muslims I have heard say the Quran is not a book of history or geography... Most muslims constantly lay claims to historical and geographical facts as pointing to further proof of its divine nature.

When Quran states a historical fact accurately and it is impossible for anyone at the time to know , it's further evidence of its divine source . Otherwise , how can a person know all these facts written in hyrogliphic which he couldn't even put his hands on in the first place ?

When we say Quran is not a history book , we mean it isn't concerned with details to the digree of mentioning what someone ate on lunch or dinner ! It doesn't mention everything but rather what holds a purpose to be mentioned . And what on Earth is the problem if Quran says "Pharoh's wife" ?

The point of this thread was that historical facts point that the title "Pharoh" isn't used during the times of prophet Yusuf but rather sometime before the birth of prophet Moses peace upon them both . Quran states that accurately . So either the Bible is wrong when it says Pharoh in an inaccurate period of time , or in case we accept the Bible using such a term , Quran is more accurate .

[*اسلامي عزي*]

@ Nosayr Allah

may Allah bless you brother .

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And.. I stated it is not a problem for Christians, reason being as our salvation does not depend on the date of the exodus

I do not talk about the date of the Exodus .
the bible made a big mistake and you say :" it is not a problem for Christians " !
how do you explain the fact : YAHWEH does not know that the term " pharaoh " was not used as a title to refer to the Egyptian ruler during the MK ?????

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I see. You are one of the few muslims I have heard say the Quran is not a book of history or geography... Most muslims constantly lay claims to historical and geographical facts as pointing to further proof of its divine nature.

Even if the holy Qura'n contain many geographical, historical and scientific miracle he is not specialized in history or geography nor he is a book of salutations !

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Why is she not called Queen in the Quran?

Why here the pharaoh's first born is not called "prince" ????

Exodus 11 : 5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.





peace to you .

[pandora]

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@ Nosayr Allah

may Allah bless you brother .



I do not talk about the date of the Exodus .
the bible made a big mistake and you say :" it is not a problem for Christians " !
how do you explain the fact : YAHWEH does not know that the term " pharaoh " was not used as a title to refer to the Egyptian ruler during the MK ?????

and hereby lies your problem.. Please accept my apology for not getting your point earlier.. You are thinking YHWH gave the Old Testament as per the Quran ... Word verbatim. The Bible has NEVER made this claim for itself. The Old Testament begins with the five books of Moses known as Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy....These books cover the history of mankind from the beginning of creation and then concentrate specifically on the history of the Israelites from the time of Abraham through to the great exodus of the Israelites from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. The Bible is very much a book of history... It's the unfolding of Gods plan for mankind... Told through his prophets... These prophets were given the revelation and the implicit understanding of Gods will to convey the revelation. There are parts that contain the actual words of YHWH in the Old Testament for sure, and it's quite clear where and what those words are.

The following ten books cover the history of the nation and the rise of its prophets up to the time of David. Up to this point the books are all primarily historical. Then follows the second major part of the Old Testament, namely five books that are commonly known as the wisdom books because they concentrate on teaching about the knowledge of God and true, discerning faith in him. They include the Book of Job, the Psalms of David and the Proverbs of Solomon. Finally there are the remaining seventeen books of the Old Testament which are known as the books of the writing prophets as they record the prophecies of the later prophets of Jewish history ...such as Jonah, Daniel and Ezekiel...before the Old Testament scriptures were completed some four hundred and fifty years before Christ. Unlike the Quran the Bible is revealed in chronological order and historical context has great importance to the unfolding of the revelations.

The Old Testament is a book defining God's dealings with the nation of Israel from the time of creation up to four hundred and fifty years before Christ.... It was completed nearly five centuries before the time of Jesus. It prepares the way for the Messiah.. Jesus .. And the main theme of most of the major prophets was prophesying was this very thing.. The Messiah.. Because that is the culmination of Gods plan for mankind's redemption. It was a given that worship of the one God.. YHWH.. Was a done deal.

so given that in matters of historical content were not the words of YHWH.. But simply mankind relaying the historical context of the revelation. It hardly matters weather the term pharaoh was used before it's time or King was used or whatever term.. The meaning is clear.. The measures YHWH takes to lead His people to salvation. So it's not as big a mistake as you believe it to be.. The important point is we do not rely on the exodus, or even the law given to Moses from YHWH.. For our salvation.

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Why pharaoh's first born is not called "prince" ????

Exodus 11 : 5
And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

peace to you .
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lol... Same reason.. Not that important as you say Pharaohs first born son we assume like yourselves in wife... Logically leads to the conclusion as the Pharaoh is royal thus his family are royal... I hope you do not see it a problem coming to the same conclusions you yourself make with your Quran.

Peace also to you.