Well, I think that most of your last answer is just emotional and that you are just ignoring most of what I'm saying to you and you just didn't answer the points mentioned in my last posts. Anyway, I'll answer you in details very soon.
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
Well, I think that most of your last answer is just emotional and that you are just ignoring most of what I'm saying to you and you just didn't answer the points mentioned in my last posts. Anyway, I'll answer you in details very soon.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
new member
But I don't see my last post. It seems like it got lost. Please repeat what it is you think I am ignoring. If you bring up 20 issues that is too much focus say on the top two or three that you would like for me to address. BTW, what is wrong with emotion? Do I have to be like I am from the planet Vulcan. I am fully human and emotion is a God given. When we are dealing with spiritual life and death issues there is nothing more important than this in life, how can you avoid emotion if you are a human who loves God and want to make Him known?QuoteOriginally Posted by 3abd Arahman
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
To find the true religion, you have to be completely neutral as much as you can and you have to put aside your emotions and to think with your brain.Quote
You have been brought up as a christian and you love your religion. What if your religion is wrong ? How will you be able to see this while you are preventiong yourself from thinking properly because of your overwhelming emotions?
The same applies to me too. When comparing religions, we have to put aside our emotions and think with our brains and only our brains not our brains and hearts.
This is what I did, when I was comparing Islam to Christianity a long time ago to find which religion is the true religion that I should follow in order to please God and be safe after this life.
Hope you are able to do the same.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
I am also amazed that you think that although 1 John 5:7 is spurious, it doesn't affect the central message of the Bible.
It surely affects it.
If this sentence is authentic then the Bible surely supports trinity.
If this sentence is spurious, then the Bible does not frankly support trinity and trinity is just a conclusion.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
Excuse me, I will close this thread till I finish my answer completely so that you don't interrupt me. As soon as I finish my answer, I'll open the thread and give you the chance to answer. I expect finishing my answer tomorrow.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
So now, what you can't deny, is that Philo who lived while Jesus Pbuh was alive (20 BC-50 AD), is the one who developed the concept of the Logos or the word as a divine being and according to Philo the logos is the first born of God and through the Logos, God created the universe. Philo was a jew who didn't believe in Jesus Pbuh, he was just a heretic according to the Jews.
The author of the fourth gospel, at the end of the first century, after the death of Philo by around 50 years, just plagarized what Philo said about the Logos or the word and just did one addition, he claimed that this Logos or Word is Jesus Pbuh.
My point is that you can't read John 1 and tell me, it proves that Jesus is God. You can't tell me"All things were made by Him (Jesus) for Him and through Him" proves that Jesus is God. It just proves that the author of this gospel is copying from heretic jews and that your faith is just built upon this plagarism.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
Answer :Quoteor that God calls Jesus "Oh God" Heb 1.
1- Epistle to Hebrews has been disputed by some of the early christians as mentioned by Eusebius
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf....viii.iii.html
2- There is a great debate about the author of epistle to HebrewsQuote. Eusebius Pamphilius: Church History, Life of Constantine, Oration in Praise of Constantine
Chapter III.—The Epistles of the Apostles.
5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is dis135
puted595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place.596 In regard to the so-called Acts of Paul,597 I have not found them among the undisputed writings.598
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...to_the_Hebrews
QuoteAuthorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The King James Bible 1611 ed. ends the Epistle to the Hebrews with "Written to the Hebrewes, from Italy, by Timothie"
The author of Hebrews, that is, of the Epistle to the Hebrews, is unknown. Although perhaps the most common theory through the ages has been that Paul the Apostle is the author,[1] most modern scholars generally agree that it was not written by him.[2] Since thethird century A.D. doubts have been raised about the identity of the true author. It is one of the Antilegomena—New Testament books whose canonicity was initially somewhat disputed.[3]
Some scholars now believe that the author was one of Paul's pupils or associates, citing stylistic differences between Hebrews and the other Pauline epistles.[4]
Though the writing style varies from Paul in a number of ways, no author is internally named in the letter, and the authorship has been debated since the earliest days of the Church, there still are some who regard the apostle Paul as the writer of Hebrews due to some similarities noted in phrasings, and the similar focus on Christ's superior plan of salvation.[5] Editions of the King James Version of the Bible usually place a heading over Hebrews with the words, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." However, that attribution was not part of the original document of Hebrews, but was added several hundred years later by scribes copying the book who believed Paul to be the author.[6]
3- This sentence is just taken from Psalm 45
The jews just translate it into ( Judge) instead of (God), which means that the phrase in Psalms 45 may not be referring to God at all, but the author translated it in this way to prove deity of christ
See Rashi's commentary on the Tanach
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
4- Christian unitarians don't believe that Heb1 proves deity of ChristQuote[TABLE="class: Co_TanachTable rashi_on, width: 100%"]
Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
Please read this whole page, written by christians not jews or muslims :
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/vid...-christ-as-god
5- Let's read the whole verse from Psalms 45 or Heb 1QuoteHow about Psalm 45, another prophecy about the Messiah—this one about him riding forth victoriously to conquer and then rule the earth as God’s perfect representative. Verses 6 and 7 are quoted in Hebrews 1:8 and 9, which is where we will go next. Sad to say that in verse 6 the word “god” is once again mis-capitalized as “God.” No, like Psalm 82 and Isaiah 9:6, this psalm is also speaking of the Man among men, the one whom God would empower to restore His lost Paradise.OK, let’s look at Hebrews 1, and the context of the quote from Psalm 45. For the record, Hebrews 1 and 2 are a trenchant account of Jesus Christ’s journey from suffering to glory, emphasizing why he had to be a man (the Last Adam) in order to be the Redeemer of mankind. They are covered in detail in Chapters 2 and 3 of our One God & One Lordbook. Hebrews 1:1-3 shows how God did His best in Old Testament times to communicate to mankind via the spoken and written words of the prophets, but what He really had in mind was Jesus, His ultimate image. Verse 4 then begins a most significant analogy between Jesus and the angels that goes all the way through Chapter 2.
Verses 5, 6, and 7, each quoting an Old Testament reference, are speaking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v. 5—it’s not about his birth—look at Ps. 2:7 & Acts 13:33) and his return to the earth to rule (v. 6). Verse 8 clarifies that Psalm 45:6 and 7 are a Messianic prophecy, but the translators once again mis-capitalize “god” as “God.” But look at verse 9! It says, “…therefore God, even your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Say, if one is God, how can anyone else be his “God”? That should be a more frequently asked question! In agreement with many other verses of Scripture, Hebrews 1:9 is clearly saying that because Jesus Christ suffered and died, God raised him from the dead and highly exalted (anointed) him as Lord.
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
It is actually clear here that the speaker is addressing ( God) and then addressing someone else telling him (your God)
Surely, God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (your God)
Probably the one whom the speaker here addressed telling him (Your God) is king David or king Solomon and the christians will insist that the speaker is speaking to Jesus Pbuh
Even if we want to say that the speaker is speaking to only one person, we will have to accept the translation of the jews (O judge) instead that of christians (O God) because simply God has no God, and no one can speak to God telling him (Your God)
Last edited by 3abd Arahman; 08-06-2014 at 01:54 AM.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
First of all, God didn't say in the Quran that Christians consider virgin Mary to be a part of the trinityQuote
I challenge you to find any verse in the holy Quran saying that the trinity is composed of the father, mother and son
You will never be able to find such a thing
However, God said that he will ask Jesus Pbuh on Judgement day whether he told the people to take him and his mother as gods.
This is the quranic verse :
وإذ قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم أأنت قلت للناس اتخذوني وأمي إلهين من دون الله قال سبحانك ما يكون لي أن أقول ما ليس لي بحقّ إن كنت قلته فقد علمته تعلم ما في نفسي ولا أعلم ما في نفسك إنك أنت علام الغيوب
Yusuf Ali
And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (5: 116)
In the arabic language, the word god إله refers to any person or any thing that is worshipped by some people.
So since the catholics worship virgin Mary as you admitted, this means that they took her a god even if they say that we don't consider her God.
However, some catholics consider virgin Mary divine. They call her divine mother, some of them claim that everything in the heavens and earth , even God, is subject to her. Some of them claim that she is equal to God.
Read this :
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/omnip.htm
Here are some quotes from this link
[pg. 416]
Hence St.George, Archbishop of Nicomedia, says, O great Mother of God: "Thou hast insuperable [unsurpassable] strength, since the multitude of our sins does not outweigh thy clemency. Nothing resists thy power, for the Creator regards thy honor as his own. ..
[pg. 419]
Let us always have recourse to this divine Mother, who knows not how to let any one who invokes her aid depart without consolation, says Blosius. ...
[pg. 421]
Every little act of devotion is sufficient to secure the patronage of this divine Mother. ...
[pg. 16]
27. Inasmuch as grace perfects nature, and glory perfects grace, it is certain that Our Lord is still, in Heaven, as much the Son of Mary as He was on earth; and that, consequently, He has retained the obedience and submission of the most perfect Child toward the best of all mothers. But we must take great pains not to conceive this dependence as any abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her. Mary, being altogether transformed into God by grace and by the glory which transforms all the saints into Him, asks nothing, wishes nothing, does nothing contrary to the eternal and immutable will of God. When we read that in the writings of Sts. Bernard, Bernardine, Bonaventure and others that in Heaven and on earth everything, even God Himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God has been well pleased to give her is so great that [pg. 17] it seems as if she had the same power as God; and that her prayers and petitions are so powerful with God that they always pass for commandments with His Majesty, who never resists the prayer of His dear Mother, because she is always humble and conformed to His will.
28. In the Heavens Mary commands the angels and the blessed. As a recompense for her profound humility, God has empowered her and commissioned her to fill with saints the empty thrones from which the apostate angels fell by pride. The will of the Most High, who exalts the humble (Lk. 1:52), is that Heaven, earth and Hell bend, with good will or bad will, to the commandments of the humble Mary,whom He has made sovereign of Heaven and earth, general of His armies, treasurer of His treasures, dispenser of His graces, worker of His greatest marvels, restorer of the human race, Mediatrix of men, the exterminator of the enemies of God, and the faithful companion of His grandeurs and triumphs.
Also watch this, to see that the catholic bishops say that Mary is equal to God :
I don't understand what are you arguing about when you ask who said that God , the father, is the third of three?
Surely, it is you.
You believe that there are 3 persons in the Godhead. According to what you believe, God, the father, is a person, Jesus is a person, the Holy spirit is a person, yet they are all ONE GOD. So according to your faith, God, whom you call the Father, is one of three persons in the Godhead or, literally, third of three.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
Well, according to the Bible, the disciples have the authority to forgive sins tooQuoteThat is why He could forgive sin;
John 20
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.”22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.”
Are the disciples divine too?
If you say no, but they were given the authority to forgive the sins from God, I'll tell you ok, so why doesn't the same apply to Jesus? Why don't you say he was given the authority to forgive sins from God?
Let's suppose that Jesus Pbuh really said : ( Before Abraham I am )QuoteIt is why he could say "Before Abraham was I am"
Does this really prove that he is God?
See, compare this to the hadith of prophet Muhammad Pbuh : ""I was a Prophet when Adam was between bodyand soul"
Prophet Muhammad Pbuh doesn't want to say that he was physically present before Adam was created, he just wants to say that his prophethood was determined by God and was known to God before Adam's creation
The same applies to ( Before Abraham, I am), it doesn't mean that Jesus Pbuh was physically present before Abraham, it means that his prophethood was determined by God and known to God since earlier stages.
Read Jeremiah 1 also :
4 The Lord’s word came to me:
5 “Before I created you in the womb I knew you;
before you were born I set you apart;
I made you a prophet to the nations.”
Do you think that this means that Jeremiah was physically present as a prophet before he was born ?
Well surely, ( I am the way) doesn't mean ( I am God), it just means ( I, as a messenger from God, show you the way to God)Quotethat is why He could say I am the way.. He is saying He is the only way.
Do you want me to ignore that Jesus said that the father is his God, and believe that Jesus himself is God because he said I am the way?
I explained to you what Jesus Pbuh meant by ( Before Abraham I am), if he really said itQuoteEven Allah said Jesus is the word "Be" which is a form of "I am" God said to Moses "I am that I am" Jesus said "I am"
We found that according to the Bible, the Father was Jesus's God, and that Jesus used to pray to God, and that Jesus didn't know when the hour is?QuoteWe must all come to our own conclusion of who Jesus is, but remember Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He"
Peace be unto you friend
So we understood that he is the servant of God
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
عبد فقير يرجو عفو الله
The thread is open again. Sorry for closing it all this time. Kindly answer all my points.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة )
ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
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