Nearly all Christians believe that Jesus was and is God. That is what the institutional
church has always taught. Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief.
Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or
the like. Moreover, the New Testament (NT) gospels have no statement by Jesus in which
he identifies himself as God. In fact, there are many Bible verses which indicate that
Jesus cannot be God by declaring that only the Father is God
First, and foremost, is one of Jesus’ sayings recorded only in the Gospel of John. The
setting is the Last Supper, right before he was arrested and crucified. He prayed for his
disciples, saying, “Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3). So, Jesus tells the Father that he
is “the only true God” and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these
points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.
Moreover, Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier,
he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44).
Most of what you said is true, but it is not all true especially you conclusion which is all wrong. Every Christian will admit that Jesus is not the father God, and no where are there many Bible verses which indicate that Jesus cannot be divine by declaring that only the Father is God. What you fail to understand is Christians believe there is only one God, and that Jesus is His word.
It is written that God exalts His word above all His name. There is no evidence that Muhammad even knew the name of God in the Quran or anywhere. Christians don't believe Jesus is God the father, but we all according to Scripture believe that Jesus is all that God is, but not all there is to God. This is a great mystery, and it is not like anything on earth.
Even God calls Jesus His son, and He even refers to Jesus like this: but to the son He says "But thou OH God...." Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my God." You ignored to mention that Jesus did and said things that only God could do and say such as "Your sins are forgiven... I and the father are one..." Jesus accepted worship that only belongs to God.
Christians are not obtuse my friend. They don't need to hear Jesus say "BTW, I am God so believe me when I say it" We know who Jesus is. To know Him is to have eternal life. He said, "No man comes to God except through me" Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" did you think Jesus was joking?
IHMO, it sounds like He is talking about people that say things like you are saying. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am." If I meditate on these words, I think of when Moses asked God: "Who shall I say sent me?" God responded, "I am that I am." Jesus said, "I am before Abraham" so how can you just blow off all those verses I mentioned and think that one day you will stand before a terrible God and have to explain why you ignored these verses. Personally, I would never trade shoes with you. There are plenty of other Scriptures to show that Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things and that He is not honored as a prophet unless he is honored above all prophets! To true Christians Jesus is not a messenger; He is the Message!
Do you know that we as muslims believe that there is one God who has no son and who neither gave birth nor was born and Jesus is his word, messenger and servant ?
We as muslims believe that prophet Jesus Pbuh is the word of God but that does not mean to us that he is God or the son of God
We beleve that God who you name the Father is the God of Jesus Pbuh
Whether you believe this or not, this is what Jesus Pbuh himself believed, he used to call the father ( my God)
John 20 17 Jesus said unto her, “Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
This is exactly what we believe about Jesus Pbuh, we believe that the father is his God
There are several other verses in the new testament where the Father was described as the God of Jesus Pbuh
You claimed that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship this is completely wrong, actually Jesus Pbuh himself worshipped God
Jesus Pbuh used to fall on the ground while praying to show his poverty to God and that he is a servant of God exactly as we muslims do in our prayers
Mark 14
35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee. Take away this cup from Me; nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.” 37 And He came back and found them sleeping, and said unto Peter, “Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest thou not watch one hour? 38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
39 And again He went away and prayed and spoke the same words.
You claim that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship, you think this is true because the english translations of the Bible say that people worshipped Jesus. The word that is translated to worship is προσκυνεο
which may just mean kneel or bow
This is the meaning of this word from the Netbible website :
[TR]
[TD="class: content"]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons[/TD]
[/TR]
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Anyway, I prefer that we chat in one page only not in different pages
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Do you know that we as muslims believe that there is one God who has no son and who neither gave birth nor was born and Jesus is his word, messenger and servant ?]
Yes Arahman, I know what Islam teaches, but when Islam calls Jesus the word of God which we do also; we are able to deduct that the word of God is eternal and uncreated. You are just looking at the physical body of Jesus and not understanding that He preexisted as God's word, and it is written God exalts His word above all His name. You go through great pains to make Jesus look like just an ordinary prophet. "All things are mine" Jesus said the father had given Him all; therefore, he owns all people groups and nations. That means He owns all prophets before and after Him. You just don't know who Jesus is and Satan doesn't want you to know, because that means salvation for your soul that you don't have now. As Jesus said: "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" How is it possible that Muslims don't understand Jesus explicit words? Jesus is the word God used to create all things. That is why it is written "All thing were made by Him for Him and through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made."
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
We as muslims believe that prophet Jesus Pbuh is the word of God but that does not mean to us that he is God or the son of God
We beleve that God who you name the Father is the God of Jesus Pbuh
Whether you believe this or not, this is what Jesus Pbuh himself believed, he used to call the father ( my God)
John 20 17 Jesus said unto her, “Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, ‘I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
This is exactly what we believe about Jesus Pbuh, we believe that the father is his God]
Yes, He called God His father and God; so, if He called God is father, why do you say He is not His son? You go through such pains to justify what you want to believe to the point of using things you don't even believe in. That is so sad; I could never used something I don't believe to justify what I want to believe. Why don't you quote that the father called Jesus His son and He calls Him God "But thou Oh God is a Throne Forever...?" Yes, God the father calls Jesus God and commands that He be honored the same has Himself; otherwise, you are not honoring the God you think you love and honor. Why do you want to convince me to not honor the one and only true God and put me in a religion that has uncertainty for my eternal destination? I could never model you and use things I don't believe in the Bible to support my religion such as you are doing. That is so sad friend and I feel so bad for you.
I hope and pray you come to the knowledge of truth my friend in Jesus name.
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
There are several other verses in the new testament where the Father was described as the God of Jesus Pbuh
You claimed that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship this is completely wrong, actually Jesus Pbuh himself worshipped God
Jesus Pbuh used to fall on the ground while praying to show his poverty to God and that he is a servant of God exactly as we muslims do in our prayers
Mark 14
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Originally Posted by 3abd Arahman
35 And He went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee. Take away this cup from Me; nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.” 37 And He came back and found them sleeping, and said unto Peter, “Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest thou not watch one hour? 38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.”
39 And again He went away and prayed and spoke the same words.
You claim that Jesus Pbuh accepted worship, you think this is true because the english translations of the Bible say that people worshipped Jesus. The word that is translated to worship is
which may just mean kneel or bow
This is the meaning of this word from the Netbible website :
[TR]
[TD="class: content"]1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 3a1) to the Jewish high priests 3a2) to God 3a3) to Christ 3a4) to heavenly beings 3a5) to demons[/TD]
[/TR]
Again I see you going through great pain and jumping through all kinds of loops and hoops to take away from Jesus the reward of His suffering. Why do you bring up Jesus falling on His face to pray God's spares Him from the cross when you don't even believe He died on the cross? Why do you constantly bring scenarios to support Islam when you don't even believe they are true. This is how deep your deception appears to be. I see you deceiving yourself and Allah using deception and admitting he is the best of deceivers and proving he is by making something appear to be true that was not true. What kind of plan do you call that? Making things appear to be what they are is not the work of my God and Savior; it is the work of my adversary who goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour. Jesus said, he is the only way to God, but you seek another way. I wish I could say good luck and mean it but luck will do you NO good.
I responded to your trinity thread after all the writing I did it got lost because you closed the thread; so here is the short to it: I think you are confusing being emotional which are knee jerk responses with emotions which is God given and not necessarily a bad thing. Having emotion doesn't mean you don't use your heart or brain. My responses are carefully deliberated on, articulate and concise. No one has been able to gainsay my posts. So just why would I want to be a slave to the god of Islam when I can be free and a child of the Most high God? Why would I want the uncertainity of my eternal destiny islam has to offer as Abu Bakr points out in the lack of trust he had in the Makr of Allah? I trust him less than that. I see that Muslims seem to be insecure in their faith as well. It shows in the fact that my post have to be screened for approval after all my posting. This tells me that Muslims are not rooted and grounded in their faith like true Christians are.
First of all, my name is not Arahman, it's Abd Arahman
Arahman means the most graceful and merciful
This is the name of God
My nickname is Abd Arahman which means the servant of the most merciful or the servant of God
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I responded to your trinity thread after all the writing I did it got lost because you closed the thread;
Sorry for this, but I told you I will close the thread
You should give me time to continue my response to all your claims, you can't just interrupt me every now and then
When you write a post, copy it before you submit
So that if for any reason your post is lost, you can easily paste it again
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so here is the short to it: I think you are confusing being emotional which are knee jerk responses with emotions which is God given and not necessarily a bad thing. Having emotion doesn't mean you don't use your heart or brain. My responses are carefully deliberated on, articulate and concise.
Burninglight, it will be better if you stop just arguing and think of what others are telling you
You are very emotional
This surely affects your decisions and choices when comparing religions
Some of your arguments are ridiculous because you are just following your emotions
For example you are arguing that because Jesus Pbuh has been born from virgin, he must be God
This is an extremely ridiculous argument and you know it's ridiculous
So simply, God can create a man without a father to show people his power and that he can do what he wants and that he can break all rules of physics and biology if he wants to
The argument that since he has no human father, his father must be God, is an extremely ridiculous argument
What about all the animals that come to life through Parthenogenesis from a mother without a father? Are they sons of God?
Stop being so emotional, in order to stop sticking to such ridiculous arguments and in order to have a sound judgement
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No one has been able to gainsay my posts.
A lot of your posts and arguments have been gainsaid but you can't see this because you are emotional
A typical example of this is your argument that Jesus is divine because he has been born by a virgin
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So just why would I want to be a slave to the god of Islam when I can be free and a child of the Most high God?
Actually, according to your Bible, Jesus Pbuh himself is a servant of God
Matthew 12 15 Jesus knew what the Pharisees were planning. So he left that place, and many people followed him. He healed all who were sick, 16 but he warned them not to tell others who he was. 17 This was to give full meaning to what Isaiah the prophet said when he spoke for God: 18 “Here is my servant,
the one I have chosen.
He is the one I love,
and I am very pleased with him.
So do you think that Jesus Pbuh is a servant or a slave of God and you are not ?
It is wirth to mention that the word in the arabic translations of the Bible that is used instead of Servant in Matthew 12 is not خادم ( Khadem) which means servant but is Abd ( عبد) which means slave
Actually according to the Bible you are surely a servant of God
Let's read from Revelation 22
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown them to me.9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I’m a servant just like you and your brothers and sisters, the prophets, and those who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
So the angel, John, the prophets and those who keep the words of the scroll - according to the Bible - are all servants of God
Again the arabic word is Abd which means slave
Surely being a slave or a servant of God is not something bad, it means that God owns you in a way that can be compared to a master owning his slave
And this is surely true, God owns us and he has power and control over every single thing in our lives, we can't take a single breath unless he wills, everything that we have, God gave it to us : life, food , drink, health , money .... etc
In this way we are servants and slaves of God
In Christianity, God is described as a Father to show his love and mercy and men are described as his sons
In islam, we don't describe God as a father and we don't describe ourselves as sons of God, because describing our relation to God in this way has been misused by christians. Some of the early christians used to describe Jesus Pbuh as son of God, to show that God loves him, exactly as David and Solomon has been described as sons of God in the OT. However, after describing Jesus as son of God to show that God loves him, people began to believe that this means that he is God. This is why we don't describe God as a father in Islam or say that we are the sons of God.
However, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh taught us that God is not just as loving and merciful as a father, but that God is more loving and merciful than a mother. There’s a Hadith where a mother had lost her child during a battle, and she was looking for him fearing the worst. When she found him, she held him close and it was one of the most powerful scenes of love and mercy the companions have seen that they started to weep. Our Beloved peace be upon him said, “do you wonder at the mercy this mother had for her child? God is far more merciful to His servants than this mother is to her child!”
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Why would I want the uncertainity of my eternal destiny islam has to offer as Abu Bakr points out in the lack of trust he had in the Makr of Allah? I trust him less than that. I see that Muslims seem to be insecure in their faith as well.
In Islam, you are 100 % safe as long as you believe in God, all of his messengers, all of his books and in judgement day and you do good deeds.
This is the guarantee that the holy Quran gives to all people :
(من عمل صالحا من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون)
النحل 97
( Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer – We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.) 15:97
So your security in Islam, depends on believing in the religion of God and doing rightousness
However, we don't think that we are sure that we are 100% safe in judgement day, because we don't know how our deeds will be at our death ? At our death, will we be believers doing good deeds ? If so, we are safe but we don't know how will we be at our death.
What about christianity?
You think that you are safe because God made the Jews and Romans kill his son or himself on the cross !!!
Surely, this is a very strange concept
However, let me ask you a question
Do you think that you are secure even if you kill other people or rob them or do very bad deeds just because you believe that God has sacrificed his son ?
If so, then surely christianity is not the true religion because it encourages people to do bad deeds just because they believe that they are secure whatever their deeds are, as long as they believe that Jesus Pbuh was crucified
If you think that to be secure, you must do good deeds, then this is the same as Islam, so there is no point at all in your objection
In Islam we have hope in God and in the same time we fear him
We hope that he will forgive us and have mercy on us and in the same time we fear his punishment
Our fear from god prevents us from doing bad deeds
Abu Bakr did not say that he does not trust God of course, but what he said means that he will fear God even if one of his legs was in paradise and the other is still outside it
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It shows in the fact that my post have to be screened for approval after all my posting. This tells me that Muslims are not rooted and grounded in their faith like true Christians are.
Well, this is just what you want to think
I told you, we do this with all members whether muslims or christians
We do this with christians, because some of them speak about Islam and Prophet MuhammadPbuh in a very rude offending way
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May God bless you with truth and peace
Thank you
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
Look at this even though Muhammad didn't know god's name this video shows what the name of God means!
I don't know why do you say that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh didn't know God's name?
This is completely wrong.
Prove it if you can.
( يا أيها الناس اتقوا ربكم الذي خلقكم من نفس واحدة ) ثم وصف تعالى ذكره نفسه بأنه المتوحد بخلق جميع الأنام من شخص واحد ، معرفا عباده كيف كان مبتدأ إنشائه ذلك من النفس الواحدة ، ومنبههم بذلك على أن جميعهم بنو رجل واحد وأم واحدة وأن بعضهم من بعض ، وأن حق بعضهم على بعض واجب وجوب حق الأخ على أخيه ، لاجتماعهم في النسب إلى أب واحد وأم واحدة وأن الذي يلزمهم من رعاية بعضهم حق بعض ، وإن بعد التلاقي في النسب إلى الأب الجامع بينهم ، مثل الذي يلزمهم من ذلك في النسب الأدنى وعاطفا بذلك بعضهم على بعض ، ليتناصفوا ولا يتظالموا ، وليبذل القوي من نفسه للضعيف حقه بالمعروف على ما ألزمه الله له (تفسير الطبرى)
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Originally Posted by محبة الرحمن
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