Evidence of prophecy

[huria]

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I personally would not quote the Quran in support of the Bible because there is no need to.

I am not talking about your personal needs, just type proving divinity of Jesus from the Quran, there are many many that use such proof!! How can you use a book you do not think is from God, and you do not think its prophet is a true messenger!

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The Bible is self sufficient and does not or seek support from any source other than God. Why would I need to prove divinity of YHWH? God whom you know as Allah... For surely I would not need to prove Gods divinity to you, a Muslim.. Surely must believe that already..

It is not to proof to the muslims, that for sure, we know what our Quran tell us, but you do that, to proof it to the Christians, as there is no real evidence on Jesus divinity in the bible. So I guess it is desperate attempt.

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Hypocrisy is a two way street don't you think? You may have heard the saying.. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" ...... BTW....

Yes, true we shall see who own the glass house!

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I believe the Quran does refer to Jesus as the Word of God. Muslims just interpret the meaning behind what it means differently. We believe the Word of God is eternal and uncreated... The Bible tells us this Word is Jesus. So on that point we have a similarity of sorts between the Quran and the Bible. Gods Word is no joke.
....

We shall see, these are my points, now if you have comments you can reply but if you want me to prove that the bible is changed, we should open a new topic to discuss this, and please let me know which Christian denominations do you belong to?

[pandora]

Greetings Huria, now you have graciously given me leave to reply I will endeavour to do so. Although in truth you have not brought much to the table so to speak. :)

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It is not validation for our message, the message of Islam is very clear in the Quran, Allah made it very clear to us, no vague passages about who we should worship, or ambiguity this mean that or another, it is crystal clear,
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him. (Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)

The message is very clear thought the whole Quran, God does not change his mind between the old or new testament.
So it is not validation for a clear message, it is for Christians who are sincere, most been brought up to hate Islam, so there is no way for them to know the truth, and it is Allah’s mercy, left that door for them to investigate more, as they only believe in their book.

I did not say you seek to validate the Quran's message by the Bible. You do however use the Bible to validate Mohammed's credentials as a Prophet... You do this every time you make a claim that Mohammed was mentioned in either the Torah or the Gospels. This despite the fact you make claims of corruption against the very scriptures you erroneously use. Why it is important to you to find prophecies of Mohammed in the Bible is a point I do not understand.

There is no ambiguity or vagueness in the Bible, it's message is also as clear as crystal. I know of no Christians who have been brought up to hate Islam.. That is a strange claim to make but I expect you have good cause and evidence of such a claim.. Or why say such a thing!!! Of course the Bible does tell us we are to test the Prophets.. If anyone brings a different message then we are obliged to question that message.. God placed this obligation upon us. Truth is subjective to the individual, in matters of faith we rely on God to guide us.

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Well then my friend you have been living in your little bubble world. I am not going to direct you to Muslim scholars, but historian and Christians scholars. There are many books and recorded documentary which are unbiased, talked about the history but do not worry I will support all my claims with evidences.

There is no need to be rude or condescending.. I think it's counterproductive... If you have your evidence then bring it on, don't just talk about it. May I please request no You Tube videos. It is not a medium I wish to use. You mention Kenneth Cragg below, it would be good if you knew a but about the author, very often muslims just grab the first favourable quote that suits their purpose. A lot can be learnt from the author and aim of the article in question... Like their motives. No offence, and I have the utmost respect for the right Reverend Kenneth Cragg, first and foremost he was an Anglican priest. He has written many interesting articles on Islam, you should look some of them up.

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By whom and why? We Muslims know why but I don’t think it will benefit you or even believe the reason, why not just show you instead.

I look forward to seeing what you have on this matter, as long as it isn't an interminably boring You Tube clip.

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Lol Do you know the history of your book??, have you read how it was collected, and what they put in or left out, and what they changed and altered, many times, until this day. Please do not insult our intelligence

Yes I do... Do you? It's not my aim to insult anyone's intelligence.. I would be grateful if the same courtesy was shown to myself. If you feel unable to do so, then maybe we should end it here.

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But we do, what is right and what is wrong because we have the Furqan (the Qur'an itself as the decisive factor between the Good and the Evil), so for example we share similar names to the prophets but we will not take the accounts of the corrupted book. That God chose the worse of people to convey his message, according to the bible story. For example We share the same name for a prophet Lut peace upon him but we will not accept the incest story in the bible. So how do we know it is corrupted story? The Furqan tell us. And many more stories, if Muhammad peace be upon him was copying these stories he could at least get one exact story!! Not one, as your book now did great blasphemy against all our beloved prophets peace be upon them.

Lot was never a Bible Prophet, but simply a righteous man. As to why the Quran views the Prophets differently I don't know.. I do see by doing so the bigger picture is lost. But as I have the stories of the Biblical Prophets in what to me is their true colours, then how you view them is entirely your concern. You should be careful throwing such claims as blasphemy about, just because you do not see something the same way. The Bible Prophets each and every one is held in high esteem by all Christians and Jews.

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The Quran is a proof for us muslims, and everyone, no one has challenged it is authenticity, no one!! if that was the case, we will not be here spending our time here refuting lies. The Quran is memorized by it is entirety from the time of the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him until this day.,

“In fact what we have is what is called Mutawatr transmission of the Quran. This concept of Mutawatr, which is essentially it is an idea or it means that so many different people have narrated a particular story or a particular thing from so many different directions it is impossible, it's inconceivable that these people could have gathered together to invent a falsehood. In other words, imagine you have a thousand people, these thousand people, each of them are teaching another thousand people & each of those thousand people teaching another hundred people. Can you imagine how many hundreds of thousands of people that constitutes? And is it possible that these people could have all gathered together & conspired together to invent something? No. It's not something that is possible. And therefore it is considered in terms of the oral transmission, when something is a Mutawatr, there are so many people that have narrated it, that it's impossible that they could have invented something. And this is the case with the Quran, the entire Quran, every verse of the Quran has come to us throughout the ages a continuous Mutawatr transmission of these verses of the Quran.”

Also a leading orientalist whose name is Kenneth Cragg, he said: "The Quran is perhaps the only book, religious or secular, that has been memorised completely by millions of people.This phenomenon of the Quranic recital means the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken line of living sequence of devotion.It can not therefore be handled as an antiquarian thing nor a historical document of the distant past. The fact of hifz (meaning the Quranic memorization) has made the Quran a present possession through all the laps of Muslim time & given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to bear authority & reference alone."

So as I said above no one can challenge the authenticity of the Quran, to this day, it remain a challenge.

The authenticity of the Quran is not my concern.. I respect it as your Holy Book. I only wish you could be as respectful towards mine.. But I feel that is a big ask of a Muslim who has always been told the Bible is corrupted. Yet a lie can be authentic.. Can it not? The Bible has much historical and archeological proofs for its authenticity and has hundreds of thousands of manuscripts to call upon for verification... Indeed far more than the Quran has... Yet you would have us believe it is not an authentic Holy Book. Is that intellectually honest?

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It is not hard, I can prove that you have corrupted books, historically, and by other mean other than the Quran.

Again.. I look forward to reading what you have... As above.. No You Tube clips please. :)

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Let’s cross that bridge when we reach it, shall we? Promise I will not bore you. I have not finished yet, so please no reply until I finish, I need to go out now.

I may hold you to that promise...

Peace

[pandora]

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I am not talking about your personal needs, just type proving divinity of Jesus from the Quran, there are many many that use such proof!! How can you use a book you do not think is from God, and you do not think its prophet is a true messenger!

Well, I speak for myself and I don't answer for others... They are accountable for their own actions. We are all free to think and act according to our individual conscious are we not?

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It is not to proof to the muslims, that for sure, we know what our Quran tell us, but you do that, to proof it to the Christians, as there is no real evidence on Jesus divinity in the bible. So I guess it is desperate attempt.

Look.. I feel we are already going nowhere fast here.. Let's be clear.. I have no wish to attempt to prove your belief in Islam is misplaced. It is your faith shown to you by our God and I imagine of great importance in your life... As mine is to me. All I wish to do is try and clear up some misconceptions that muslims seem to hold about Christians. The evidence is there in the Bible for all to see in plain and simple terms.. You cannot allow yourself to see this for obvious reasons. I wonder if you have ever read any of the teachings of Jesus.. Apart from the few things attributed to Isa in the Quran.. If you had you would understand what Jesus was about. That brings us back to our free will and conscious choice.. That's the beauty of our God... He places no compulsion upon us and gives us the freedom to seek Him out in all His wondrous ways. :)

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Yes, true we shall see who own the glass house!

This reads like some kind of threat... For what reason. Is this to set the tone? I do so hope not, or it could be a very short thread. ;)

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We shall see, these are my points, now if you have comments you can reply but if you want me to prove that the bible is changed, we should open a new topic to discuss this, and please let me know which Christian denominations do you belong to?

I will wait to see your big proofs. If it your wish to open a new thread to air them, then feel free to do so. It's immaterial to any dialogue as to what Christian denomination I am.. Any more than what type of Muslim denomination you are.

Peace to you.

[sarah_]

Pandora,
you think Muslims disrespect Jesus, may peace be upon him, because they say he is the son of Mary? Why do you think so? Isn't Mary his mother?!

[pandora]

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Pandora,
you think Muslims disrespect Jesus, may peace be upon him, because they say he is the son of Mary? Why do you think so? Isn't Mary his mother?!

Greetings Sarah, you ask why it is disrespectful to refer to Jesus as "son of Mary". First of all, to the best of my knowledge Jesus was only referred to as Son of Mary once in the Bible, and it was in a disparaging way... "Isn't this Jesus the son of Mary?" Jesus responds, "A prophet is not without honor save in his own town. There were some who referred to Jesus in this way because they doubted He was the Messiah it was a term they used to mock Him. No Prophet has ever been referred to as the son of their mother. Their title always comes through the father.

The Bible is clear on all the titles Jesus was known by, at the annunciation of His birth the Angel Gabriel gave His name He was to be called by.. Yeshua, along with the titles He was to be known by.. Son of God most High, Mighty Counsellor, Prince of Peace, Messiah .. among others. Son of Mary was never one of them, Jesus referred to Himself as Son of God or Son of Man... His disciples referred to Him as Lord but why do or would you refer to the Son of the living God as Son of Mary? Because you do not accept Jesus' claim to sonship. Everyone has a father... Why does the Quran not refer to Jesus as Son of Joseph? After all it like the Bible accepts that Joseph was Mary's husband and as such the earthly father of Jesus. However, as the Quran recognises the virgin birth and Jesus as the Messiah whilst at the same time cannot accept that the father of Jesus was God. Also at this point I need to make very clear to you that this act of creation did not necessitate any physical union between God and Mary. That belief is blasphemous and no Christian has ever believed that ever. The very idea that God somehow would need to take a wife is totally abhorrent as it is ridiculous.

I promise that you do dishonor Him by referring to The Son of God as son of his mother... At least refer to Him as the son of man if it bothers you to call Him the son of God, but those that refer to or call Jesus Son of Mary as a title will be judged for their lack of honor and respect. To be forewarned is to be foreharmed. You are now accountable for what you know.

Peace.

[huria]

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;593442]
I did not say you seek to validate the Quran's message by the Bible. You do however use the Bible to validate Mohammed's credentials as a Prophet... You do this every time you make a claim that Mohammed was mentioned in either the Torah or the Gospels. This despite the fact you make claims of corruption against the very scriptures you erroneously use. Why it is important to you to find prophecies of Mohammed in the Bible is a point I do not understand.....

Well as I said in my whole reply, we believe there is some truth left, and the Quran tell us, that the name is there, so it is there. You do not believe it, you are within your right to do so but I just explained why we do.

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There is no ambiguity or vagueness in the Bible, it's message is also as clear as crystal.

We will see, maybe you can explain it for me.

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I know of no Christians who have been brought up to hate Islam.. That is a strange claim to make but I expect you have good cause and evidence of such a claim..

People can say something and do the opposite of what they are saying, as they say “actions speak louder than words”.

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God placed this obligation upon us. Truth is subjective to the individual, in matters of faith we rely on God to guide us.

I hope you do as you preach, and stand by what you have said.

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There is no need to be rude or condescending.. I think it's counterproductive... If you have your evidence then bring it on, don't just talk about it.

What so rude about been in bubble word?? maybe bad choice of word, I try not to be intimidating next time.

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May I please request no You Tube videos.

No youtube, any other requests?

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You mention Kenneth Cragg below, it would be good if you knew a but about the author, very often muslims just grab the first favourable quote that suits their purpose. A lot can be learnt from the author and aim of the article in question... Like their motives. No offence, and I have the utmost respect for the right Reverend Kenneth Cragg, first and foremost he was an Anglican priest. He has written many interesting articles on Islam, you should look some of them up.

I know exactly who is Kenneth Cragg, most Orientals were not fair about Islam BUT there are facts, even haters cannot deny. For example, if someone hate you Pandora, and says all the bad things about you, even if they were not true But then he says facts, for example Pandora is tall, that is a fact he cannot deny, and does not really matter what else he says. The oral transmission of the Quran is a FACT, no religion can compete and bring something like it.

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Lot was never a Bible Prophet, but simply a righteous man. As to why the Quran views the Prophets differently I don't know.. I do see by doing so the bigger picture is lost. But as I have the stories of the Biblical Prophets in what to me is their true colours, then how you view them is entirely your concern. You should be careful throwing such claims as blasphemy about, just because you do not see something the same way. The Bible Prophets each and every one is held in high esteem by all Christians and Jew

I think you saw the other thread and you were disappointed, not great acts from normal people let alone prophets of God, I will not dwell in this too much as I take it is sensitive subject but I would love to know your input on it but we will leave it to last.

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. Yet a lie can be authentic.. Can it not?

You have to explain this!

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. The Bible has much historical and archeological proofs for its authenticity and has hundreds of thousands of manuscripts to call upon for verification... Indeed far more than the Quran has

That is part of the subject we will talk about.

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. Well, I speak for myself and I don't answer for others

Fair enough

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. They are accountable for their own actions. We are all free to think and act according to our individual conscious are we not?

According to me of course but are you sure about that?

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Look.. I feel we are already going nowhere fast here.. Let's be clear.....

I thought we were getting along like house on fire!

QUOTE=pandora;593442]
I have no wish to attempt to prove your belief in Islam is misplaced...... [/QUOTE]

You wish to prove it but you cannot, and it is within your right to do so.

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L The Bible Prophets each and every one is held in high esteem by all Christians and Jews.

Really ?

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Apart from the few things attributed to Isa in the Quran

What did the Quran say about Jesus that is bad? He is honored mighty messenger of God and his mother the best women of this world!

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I wonder if you have ever read any of the teachings of Jesus......

Teaching of Jesus peace be upon him?? According to the bible?? Which Jesus, the one for the old testament or the new testament, as there is two different personalities emerges.

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t's immaterial to any dialogue as to what Christian denomination I am.. Any more than what type of Muslim denomination you are.

Of course it does, not disrespect but some domination have more books that consider the bible, as for me the forum is for Sunni, so it not a secret.

[pandora]

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Well as I said in my whole reply, we believe there is some truth left, and the Quran tell us, that the name is there, so it is there. You do not believe it, you are within your right to do so but I just explained why we do.

Does the Quran say exactly where Mohammed is mentioned in the Torah and the Gospels? No?? So then that leaves you in the position of finding it yourselves. Which in a work the size and scope of the Bible will not be an easy task. On that basis I can see where the totally random muslim claims come from.. You are told Mohammed is mentioned so therefore you must above all find the reference otherwise the Quran is in error. It should not be that hard to find, Jesus was mentioned more than 150 times in the Old Testament alone. The Prophets did not foretell of other Prophets ..by name.. They only knew others would come after their time had ended, yet many of them of them foretold of Jesus as the Messiah.

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We will see, maybe you can explain it for me.

lol... I can but try. :)

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People can say something and do the opposite of what they are saying, as they say “actions speak louder than words”.

I have no time for double standards. You need to understand that from the start. I speak from my own heart and mind. In matters of faith I am guided by the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit as everyone who is part of the Living Gospel is.

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I hope you do as you preach, and stand by what you have said.

? ? I always do.

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What so rude about been in bubble word?? maybe bad choice of word, I try not to be intimidating next time.

if you don't see how such comments can be seen as rude, then I can't help you there.

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No youtube, any other requests?

Nope.. Maybe not to heavy on the quotes from "scholars" even former Christian ones.. As at the end of the day it's just their opinion which is of no greater value than your own in my eyes.

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I know exactly who is Kenneth Cragg, most Orientals were not fair about Islam BUT there are facts, even haters cannot deny. For example, if someone hate you Pandora, and says all the bad things about you, even if they were not true But then he says facts, for example Pandora is tall, that is a fact he cannot deny, and does not really matter what else he says. The oral transmission of the Quran is a FACT, no religion can compete and bring something like it.

How did you know I am tall??? Fact is oral transmission in itself is not any guarantee that the Quran is what it claims to be. Given time I could memorise the works of Shakespeare.. That is not proof they are divine in nature. I always quite liked rev Kenneth Cragg.. :)

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I think you saw the other thread and you were disappointed, not great acts from normal people let alone prophets of God, I will not dwell in this too much as I take it is sensitive subject but I would love to know your input on it but we will leave it to last.

I think I explained the nature of my disappointment. I am sorry that for whatever reason you find the fact that the Biblical Prophets were portrayed as what they were.. That is ordinary men and women and as such were prone to the weaknesses all ordinary men and women are prone to.. That my friend is why we need God. I will explain at some point, on another thread if you wish why it is important that the Prophets are ordinary people who were chosen to do Gods will on earth.. And not some sinless super beings. Unless you find it too sensitive an issue for you.

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You have to explain this!

For a lie to be taken as a truth it has to be convincing, how more convincing for a lie to be hidden amidst the truth. You should ask yourself who you consider your enemy here.. Christians? Jews? Or anyone who is not a Muslim... I see we have a greater common enemy which we should be combining our efforts to defeat.. That enemy is Satan. I do not think Islam deals with Satan satisfactorily, we must all be on our guard for he is the father of lies and the master of deception and his kingdom is here now on earth. His aim is not to tempt you to sin, His aim is greater than that. Maybe I have gone off on a tangent here.. And Satan and our differing views of him should be dealt with another time.

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That is part of the subject we will talk about.

May I ask when this will happen? :-D

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Fair enough

Right then. Good one.. We concur..

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According to me of course but are you sure about that?[/QUOTE

Yep.. Pretty much as one can be sure of anything.

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I thought we were getting along like house on fire!

Really..... Maybe it would be wise if we stocked up on fire extinguishers... Just in case. ;)

QUOTE=pandora;593442]
I have no wish to attempt to prove your belief in Islam is misplaced......

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You wish to prove it but you cannot, and it is within your right to do so.

As you say.. As is also your right.

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Really ?

Yes... Really.

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What did the Quran say about Jesus that is bad? He is honored mighty messenger of God and his mother the best women of this world!

I explained why referring to Jesus as the Son of Mary was disrespectful. I gave you the information and the reasons why it is so, the choice is yours and is something you will be judged upon.

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Teaching of Jesus peace be upon him?? According to the bible?? Which Jesus, the one for the old testament or the new testament, as there is two different personalities emerges.

Yes, it has to be according to the Bible because that is the only place you will find His teachings. Actually.. If you start with the "Sermon on the Mount"you should get the picture. Where do you find the personality of Jesus in the Old Testament? Where do you look for His personality in the Old Testament? And in what way do you see they are different?

See... How easy it is to keep back and forth addressing points raised.. Whilst keeping you from your mission of providing the thread with the proof.. :) we need to have more hours in the day or speed this forum up some.

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Of course it does, not disrespect but some domination have more books that consider the bible, as for me the forum is for Sunni, so it not a secret.

I guess then you could say I am Anglican would be nearest. You can just stick with the 66 books used by all or you can include the deuterocanonical and the Gnostics if you like. Whatever you prefer..It really doesn't matter that some denominations use more books it does not mean that those who use the usual 66 are somehow denied access to the others. I should just mention IMHO that faith and God are not to be found in any "religion".. Religion is the framework to seek and find God.. Your faith comes when you find Him.

Peace to you.

[huria]

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. Fact is oral transmission in itself is not any guarantee that the Quran is what it claims to be. Given time I could memorise the works of Shakespeare.

Why Shakespeare? Why not memories your holy book??

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. Nope.. Maybe not to heavy on the quotes from "scholars" even former Christian ones.. As at the end of the day it's just their opinion which is of no greater value than your own in my eyes.

No youtube I would understand, no quotes even from Christian scholars? Really ?And if your opinion is set why discuss at all?? What do you suggest we talk about then!! the weather??
We will talk about facts, and if you will be just wasting my time, I will just post my article, if you are not interested in discussion?

[pandora]

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Why Shakespeare? Why not memories your holy book??

I was making an example, that any book can be memorised it does not mean that the book is divinely inspired by God. I have not bothered to check, but I'm sure people have memorised the Bible. Yet as the Bible is maybe four times the size of the Quran in its entirety... Longer if you include all the extra books ;) that's quite a feat. personally speaking I believe it's more important to act on the word rather than just know the word. I have also heard that some muslims who memorise the Quran may not fully understand the words they memorise.. Is it more important to know, understand and even follow the word? Than just having the ability to commit it to memory.

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No youtube I would understand, no quotes even from Christian scholars? Really ?And if your opinion is set why discuss at all?? What do you suggest we talk about then!! the weather??
We will talk about facts, and if you will be just wasting my time, I will just post my article, if you are not interested in discussion?

lol... You're doing it again.. I said not too many quotes from your scholars..obviously I don't expect you to know everything and neither do I claim to know everything. So, seeking the opinions of other sources on occasions will be inevitable. I just meant I would prefer to hear your own opinion rather than a "scholars" in the first instance. Obviously I take it that using both the Quran and Bible is a given.

I have no no objection to you talking about the weather.. If you feel the need as long as it does not put you off your main objective. BTW .. That last bit.. An attempt at humour.. :)

There is rather a lot of posting of articles on this forum already.. Don't you think?

Peace

[sarah_]

Referring to Jesus as the son of Mary, is absolutely correct and in no way disrespectful, because Jesus, may peace be upon him had no father. God created him in a miraculous way, without a father. You say // Everyone has a father...// Not true. Adam, may peace be upon him, had no father and no mother. God does what He wills, He just says “Be” and it is.

//However, as the Quran recognizes the virgin birth and Jesus as the Messiah whilst at the same time cannot accept that the father of Jesus was God.//
The father of Jesus was not God. Jesus was created miraculously without a father. The term son of God is used metaphorically in the Bible as an expression to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion. Other people in the Bible are called sons of God too.
I’ll leave you with these verses from the Quran for now :)

They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one. All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals. [19:88-95].

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" [19:30-35].